Need some advice on reloading 45-70

Weekend Gunslingers

Weekend Gunslingers

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Hi folks

I usually use Hodgdon powders for reloading 9mm, 30-30, 7.62x39 and .223
I just got my dies etc for reloading 45-70 using Hodgdon 4198, spent Hornady Leverevolution brass and the 325gr Hornady FTX tips.

So here is my dilemma:

I usually use the Hodgdon reloading center's load data and here is what is says based on the 325gr FTX tip by Hornady and H4198:

Min: 52gr
Max: 56 gr

* Keep in mind the max capacity of the case is around 56gr

Hornady's load data on the other hand for the same tips and powder says:

Min: 42gr
Max 47.9 gr


Now that is a pretty significant difference.

Who's data do I trust?

Thanks in advance.
 
The 45 70 has 3 different data bases depending on the firearm.

1 Old trapdoor types
2 modern levers ( Marlin 1895, Winchester 1886 )
3 Ruger 1,3
 
reb said:
The 45 70 has 3 different data bases depending on the firearm.

1 Old trapdoor types
2 modern levers ( Marlin 1895, Winchester 1886 )
3 Ruger 1,3
Click to expand...

Makes more sense. Thanks very much! The Hornady data says ( Marlin 1895) so I think that is what I will use for my Henry 45-70.
 
As per Post #2 - maybe go back to your sources and find out what pressure level those loads are for? I see folks trying to tell me that they load their 45-70 to 458 Win Mag levels. I have a 458 Win Mag - and I do load it down to original 45-70 levels - seems to be a better way? Throats are not the same, original limits (with 500 grain bullets) were not the same.

If you start at a Start load - and intend to "work up" - you will discover very quickly if that loading is suitable for the rifle that you have, or not.

If I were you (which I am not), I think I would start at lowest Start level of that combo of powder and bullet that I found, in a published work - maybe initially go up one grain per step - then 0.5 grain per step - to find where is "too hot" in your gun. An acquaintance found a recipe somewhere and loaded up a batch - very first shot froze his bolt closed - banged on it with wood block to open - and broke that handle off. Cost him months and similar to what he paid for the rifle to get all fixed - last I heard he is quite convinced that reloading is a bad idea. I would suggest that perhaps jumping in without "working up" is likely the "bad idea". The reason that I suggest to start with lowest published powder load for that bullet, is because someone has pressure tested that to work - just reducing, especially, slow powder is reputed to be just as nasty, as over-loads.
 
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Potashminer said:
As per Post #2 - maybe go back to your sources and find out what pressure level those loads are for? I see folks trying to tell me that they load their 45-70 to 458 Win Mag levels. I have a 458 Win Mag - and I do load it down to original 45-70 levels - seems to be a better way? Throats are not the same, original pressure limits not the same.

If you start at a Start load - and intend to "work up" - you will discover very quickly if that loading is suitable for the rifle that you have, or not.

If I were you (which I am not), I think I would start at lowest Start level of that combo of powder and bullet that I found - maybe initially go up one grain per step - then 0.5 grain per step - to find where is "too hot" in your gun.
Click to expand...

Both of you were spot on. The Hodgdon data said "Modern rifles". I never saw their lever action data (that is also above 50gr but with a different powder). Safe bet is probably the Hornady data for the Marlin 1895 with H4198 and the FTX 325gr tips. Thanks very much.
 
OP - from what you have posted - not sure I can follow why you think your Henry rifle is suited for that pressure level - is something that I do not know whether it is or not.
 
Potashminer said:
OP - from what you have posted - not sure I can follow why you think your Henry rifle is suited for that pressure level - is something that I do not know whether it is or not.
Click to expand...

The Henry 45-70 case color hardened lever action should be similar in regards to pressures than a Marlin 1895 would it not? Both modern lever actions using the same factory ammo etc. As far as I can tell from reading a bunch of online posts, the Henry can handle the hottest factory loads no problem. So I figured it would be similar to loading for a Marlin 1895. Or am I out to lunch?

I have never loaded for 45-70 before so your thoughts are very welcome :)

Came across this too:

Thank you for your interest in Henry rifles.

All of our Henry .45-70 rifles can handle any reputable brand of factory loaded rounds, with standard and +P loads, standard profile bullets (round-nose, flat-nose, and hollow-point), and which are SAAMI (up to 28,000 c.u.p.) pressure compliant. You may need to call the ammo manufacturers to confirm which loads are SAAMI compliant if not marked on the website or packaging.

Also, any .45-70 ammunition that the manufacturer states is safe for modern, 1895-model Marlin-type actions can be safely used in any Henry .45-70 rifles.

Our rifles are not designed to use the antique-action (e.g., ‘Trapdoor’) ammunition, or the overly-powerful ammunition that is made for Ruger-type actions.

Regards,
Jeffrey Post
Technical Customer Service
 
The information that you provide is new to me - I did not know that. In your case, for the cost of 5 or 10 rounds, I would still "work up" to prove to myself that I did not get a lemon - but others may proceed differently, for sure. As per my earlier posting about my neighbour's experience (Post #4) - I have no intention of experiencing that with one of my own rifles.
 
Potashminer said:
The information that you provide is new to me - I did not know that. In your case, for the cost of 5 or 10 rounds, I would still "work up" to prove to myself that I did not get a lemon - but others may proceed differently, for sure.
Click to expand...

Just loaded 3 test rounds using the Hornady 325gr FTX tips, with H4198 @43gr. (Hornady data used with 42 min and 47.9 max) Will check the primers etc after firing them. So far my rifle has only shot Hornady leverevolution 325gr and Remington Core-lokt 300gr full pressure loads with no hassles.
 
Potashminer said:
The information that you provide is new to me - I did not know that. In your case, for the cost of 5 or 10 rounds, I would still "work up" to prove to myself that I did not get a lemon - but others may proceed differently, for sure. As per my earlier posting about my neighbour's experience (Post #4) - I have no intention of experiencing that with one of my own rifles.
Click to expand...

I agree. Would not want that to happen with any of mine either. Usually start low and "work up" as suggested. Better safe than sorry :)
 
Weekend Gunslingers said:
Just loaded 3 test rounds using the Hornady 325gr FTX tips, with H4198 @43gr. (Hornady data used with 42 min and 47.9 max) Will check the primers etc after firing them. So far my rifle has only shot Hornady leverevolution 325gr and Remington Core-lokt 300gr full pressure loads with no hassles.
Click to expand...

If you're staying within the #2 loads category (like your rifle) I'm not sure you'd actually see pressure signs on your brass unless things go really really wrong and you're way above #2 levels.
 
Post #11 is correct, if you believe that only signs on your brass indicate pressure. Is at least more than one writer (John Barsness) who will say is possible on some rifles to get false information from "reading brass" - his view is that velocity, as measured with a chronograph - seems to be lock step with breech pressure - at least he has never seen velocity to be "wrong", against pressure tested loads in Western Powder lab, but has seen "brass reading" to be wrong, when the loads are actually pressure tested, in that rifle. You are better off to go with velocity - adjusted for your barrel length - if possible, to "work up" your loads. Although I still do "old school" and assess primers, bolt lift and measure case head expansion - but I also confirm my final selection with the chronograph. Is nothing "free" - velocity equals pressure. When I worked up my 338 Win Mag loads - was all about velocity - compared to published pressure tested data. Other people do not think much of that commotion.
 
Potashminer said:
Post #11 is correct, if you believe that only signs on your brass indicate pressure. Is at least more than one writer (John Barsness) who will say is possible on some rifles to get false information from "reading brass" - his view is that velocity, as measured with a chronograph - seems to be lock step with breech pressure - at least he has never seen velocity to be "wrong", against pressure tested loads in Western Powder lab, but has seen "brass reading" to be wrong, when the loads are actually pressure tested, in that rifle. You are better off to go with velocity - adjusted for your barrel length - if possible, to "work up" your loads. Although I still do "old school" and assess primers, bolt lift and measure case head expansion - but I also confirm my final selection with the chronograph. Is nothing "free" - velocity equals pressure. When I worked up my 338 Win Mag loads - was all about velocity - compared to published pressure tested data. Other people do not think much of that commotion.
Click to expand...

I'm just of the opinion that a load that produces 28,000-40,000 psi isn't going to reveal anything on brass or primers to any extent at all. Think of like an old 45 Colt revolver meant for blackpowder loads...that gun would turn into a grenade with a Ruger blackhawk load, yet the same load in a Ruger would be fine all day, both the revolver and the brass.
 
Not sure that this bit of info helps you or not...some(maybe all) Hornady 45-70 brass is slightly shorter than what the other manufacturers make. If you mix them up when reloading, the crimp will be way off. Maybe Hornady is saying to use less powder because their cases have less capacity?
 
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EhGun said:
Not sure that this bit of info helps you or not...some(maybe all) Hornady 45-70 brass is slightly shorter than what the other manufacturers make. If you mix them up when reloading, the crimp will be way off. Maybe Hornady is saying to use less powder because their cases have less capacity?
Click to expand...

Yep, I am using spent factory Leverevolution for just that reason :)
 
When I contacted Henry about what pressure their 45-70's where rated for their answer was. "They will handle all SAMMI Spec ammo."
AFAIK, 45-70Gov SAMMI is 28,000psi

In my Marlin 1895 45-70Gov. I load from Min 'Trapdoor' to Max 'Lever Action'.
Example, Hodgdon Data
325gn FTX & H322, Min @ 36.5gn to a Max @ 59.4gn.

Max 'Lever Action' loads are not for the recoil adverse.
My shoulder doesn't appreciate it when I exceed 32,000psi.

How are you crimping the FTX brass? In my rifle H4198 likes a good crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die. The LFCD is to long for short FTX brass unless modified.
 
Weekend Gunslingers said:
The Henry 45-70 case color hardened lever action should be similar in regards to pressures than a Marlin 1895 would it not? Both modern lever actions using the same factory ammo etc. As far as I can tell from reading a bunch of online posts, the Henry can handle the hottest factory loads no problem. So I figured it would be similar to loading for a Marlin 1895. Or am I out to lunch?

I have never loaded for 45-70 before so your thoughts are very welcome :)

Came across this too:

Thank you for your interest in Henry rifles.

All of our Henry .45-70 rifles can handle any reputable brand of factory loaded rounds, with standard and +P loads, standard profile bullets (round-nose, flat-nose, and hollow-point), and which are SAAMI (up to 28,000 c.u.p.) pressure compliant. You may need to call the ammo manufacturers to confirm which loads are SAAMI compliant if not marked on the website or packaging.

Also, any .45-70 ammunition that the manufacturer states is safe for modern, 1895-model Marlin-type actions can be safely used in any Henry .45-70 rifles.

Our rifles are not designed to use the antique-action (e.g., ‘Trapdoor’) ammunition, or the overly-powerful ammunition that is made for Ruger-type actions.

Regards,
Jeffrey Post
Technical Customer Service
Click to expand...

It's impossible to say whether the strength is the same or not without "testing" it to failure I imagine. I can say that many of the manuals data for the 1895 Marlin go a lot higher than 28,000 cup. From what I remember, Hodgdon's is 40,000 and Barnes is up there too. Hornady and Speer books are more conservative.

Chris.
 
Use the Hodgdon reloading page, and use the Trapdoor and Marlin 1895 action loads.

As someone else mentioned, factory hornady FTX spent brass is shorter than if you buy a bag of hornady new brass. So pay attention to "case trim length" and C.O.L or case over all length of loads. Shorter cases, with the same powder, and projectile = less volume and MORE pressure.


Some FTX loads are over 2.60 and are a bit long for lever actions despite the recipe. I drop one at a time in my Henry.

Also, last I checked there are no 45-70GOVT loads published using the "LeverEvolution" powder.
 
CzyHorse said:
When I contacted Henry about what pressure their 45-70's where rated for their answer was. "They will handle all SAMMI Spec ammo."
AFAIK, 45-70Gov SAMMI is 28,000psi

In my Marlin 1895 45-70Gov. I load from Min 'Trapdoor' to Max 'Lever Action'.
Example, Hodgdon Data
325gn FTX & H322, Min @ 36.5gn to a Max @ 59.4gn.

Max 'Lever Action' loads are not for the recoil adverse.
My shoulder doesn't appreciate it when I exceed 32,000psi.

How are you crimping the FTX brass? In my rifle H4198 likes a good crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die. The LFCD is to long for short FTX brass unless modified.
Click to expand...

The shorter brass needs the "new dimension" Hornady dies to be able to crimp it. Some people have work arounds like putting the loaded round on top of the shell holder and running into the crimping die again. Personally I use the Hornady dies.
 
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