Need some help with groups

R

Roddy

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I know people mostly discuss the latest rifles, gear, and gadgets on this sub forum but I was hoping someone could me with grouping and accuracy issues I have been having. I am new to precision shooting. My goal is to make it into the 0.75" challenge.

Im shootong prone in the dirt. My rifle is an SSG 3000 in a factory cheap stock with a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x with Burris rings sitting g on a Harris 6-9" bipod. I'm using a sock full of popcorn kernels as a rear bag.

Ammo is handloaded 178 grain Amax bullets with 43.0 grains Varget in used Federal cases with Federal 210M match primers. I am new at handloading too and have fired a few hundred rounds developing this load, but I'm sure it's not perfect.

My groups vary in consistency with the best being pretty good and the worst being pitiful. What I am wondering is if my groups can help determine what I'm doing wrong.

Here is a 140 meter target from today. I fired a sixth round in the last group as I felt it was going pretty well.

vynmr3.jpg


It's mostly sub MOA but not great.

Here's are two of my best groups from one day and a very weird one where I shot one ragged three hole group and two more in another ragged hole. It was some of these groups that made me settle on this load.

RNVUDZ.jpg


Here is one more right after I cleaned the bore with Wipe Out. It almost seemed like the second group was tighter after the barrel fouled up and then it opened up as the barrel warmed up or the bipod legs dug in or more likely I got tired.

4uqimi.jpg


I usually shoot about a round every minute to minute and a half. The barrel is never uncomfortably hot to touch.

Things I have noticed are the bipod digging in, difficulty keeping the bipod loaded, and my natural point of aim shifting left even though I feel I am squared up being the rifle and it is line with my right knee. I am new at handloading but I am very meticulous. They seem to be more accurate than factory Hornady 175 grain BTHP match ammo.

I know it's boring to talk about basic marksmanship issues and you can't determine much without watching me shoot but any help would be very much appreciated. I don't know anyone who can coach me in person.
 
Shooter I do have another bag I can use as a front bag so I will try that. My only issue is that it won't be a very practical coyote rifle but that won't matter for developing loads. I feel I mess with the bipod more than anything else from shot to shot.

BongoBob yes I tried working up different amounts of powder with different bullets and then tried adjusting seating depth. Very close to but not on the lands seems to work well. I feel a bit foolish developing loads when the biggest problem is most likely the shooter.
 
There are so many variables involved here. The only way I personally can illustrate this is by asking a number of questions as it relates to accuracy in precision shooting.

1) Your rifle, is the action bedded?
2) What trigger are you using and how much is the pull?
3) Is your action torqued?
4) How do you prepare your brass?
5) Do you anneal your brass?
6) Do you neck turn?
7) Do segregate your brass by weight or volume?
8) What different brands of bullets have you tried in your rifle? (I've personally never had much success with A-Max)
9) Do you weigh the bullets? (believe it or not they can be as much as .7 gr different from the lightest to the heaviest. exception: Lapua bullets)
10) Do you measure ogive to the base on the bullets?
11) How far are your bullets seated off the lands?
12) Have you tried different brands of brass?

These are just a few questions only you know the answer to, but they can give you a few clues to help improve your own performance. BTW, I think your groups are a good start. Cheers
 
mkrainc said:
There are so many variables involved here. The only way I personally can illustrate this is by asking a number of questions as it relates to accuracy in precision shooting.

1) Your rifle, is the action bedded?
2) What trigger are you using and how much is the pull?
3) Is your action torqued?
4) How do you prepare your brass?
5) Do you anneal your brass?
6) Do you neck turn?
7) Do segregate your brass by weight or volume?
8) What different brands of bullets have you tried in your rifle? (I've personally never had much success with A-Max)
9) Do you weigh the bullets? (believe it or not they can be as much as .7 gr different from the lightest to the heaviest. exception: Lapua bullets)
10) Do you measure ogive to the base on the bullets?
11) How far are your bullets seated off the lands?
12) Have you tried different brands of brass?

These are just a few questions only you know the answer to, but they can give you a few clues to help improve your own performance. BTW, I think your groups are a good start. Cheers
Click to expand...

I have tried 168 and 175 SMK, 175 Hornady BTHP, and 178 Amax. The Amax seemed just as accurate and we're supposed to be a better hunting bullet.

I do not do a lot of the brass prep you mention. I clean, size, trim, deburr, uniform primer pockets, and polish. Like I said I am new at this and for every article I found on how important brass prep and consistency is someone seemed to be saying you are just wasting your time. I hope to add more brass prep steps later and see how much it helps. I am sitting 0.010" off the lands as that seems to work best. The rifle is stock but other people consistantly shoot sub 0.5 MOA groups with the same setup so I don't think the rifle is lacking anything too important.

I guess what I was hoping to get with this thread is advice you would give a pistol shooter when you see their groups. They are very easy to read and problems show up clearly. Precision shooting doesn't quite work that way I guess.

Thank you everyone very much for your answers so far. The help is very much appreciated.
 
when everyone is shooting 0.5 MOA groups on the internet chances are they really aren't but don't want to admit that they really do suck on the internet for everyone to see.............
 
I have a buddy who gets 2.5 inch groups at 2200 yards. He attributes much of his accuracy to the meticulous work he puts into brass and bullet prep. The proof is in the putting. I started to put the work into the minute details. My best 5 shot groups at a hundred yards will all hide behind a dime.

Hope this helps you.
 
mkrainc said:
I have a buddy who gets 2.5 inch groups at 2200 yards. He attributes much of his accuracy to the meticulous work he puts into brass and bullet prep. The proof is in the putting. I started to put the work into the minute details. My best 5 shot groups at a hundred yards will all hide behind a dime.

Hope this helps you.
Click to expand...

:popCorn:
 
I would assume you've got some loaded rounds sitting at home. Take them out and shoot them without using the bipod. They are the biggest problem for a lot of shooters and as it sits right now, the easiest thing to change.

Do all your load development off of bags. That way you have consistency. When you have a load that works, go back to your bipod and work on technique with your proven loads.
 
mkrainc said:
I have a buddy who gets 2.5 inch groups at 2200 yards. He attributes much of his accuracy to the meticulous work he puts into brass and bullet prep. The proof is in the putting. I started to put the work into the minute details. My best 5 shot groups at a hundred yards will all hide behind a dime.

Hope this helps you.
Click to expand...

Eh...? I'm with Steve...:popCorn:
 
Ok let's tackle this problem.

First let's rule out your reloading, there are just too many variables to know what is going on there over the internet. Buy a box or two of FGMM, grab your SIG and head to the range. You will need a rear bag.

Second, there is likely nothing wrong with your bipod as long as it is attached properly so check it and leave it on there.

Use the following procedure, practice it and let us know if anything improves, shooting prone takes practice, I've been doing it for 20 years in one form or another:



-Place your rifle on the ground in front of you, point it directly at the target and place your mag(s) and rear bag right next to it.

-Take a few steps back, then fall in directly behind your rifle, legs straight and out to the sides, feet flat, arms out in front of you.

-Slide forward and place the rifle butt into your shoulder, pushing forward with your toes, load the bipod.

-The rifle should be parallel to your spine, directing recoil straight down your body.

- The rifle should now be held in position by just your shoulder and the bipod, trapping it there. Elbows are on the ground, forearms straight out.

- Now bring your head down and rest it on the cheekpiece.

- Shift your entire body left or right until the crosshairs line up on the target, do not move the rifle.

-With your left hand, pick up the rear bag and place it under the rear of the butt, keeping a grip on it with your support hand.

- Let your cheek sink down onto the cheekrest, pushing the rifle down onto the rear bag, placing the crosshairs on the target.

-With your magazine still out of the rifle and moving nothing but your right arm, run the bolt so you can do a dry fire.

-Once lined up, close your eyes, then begin squeezing the trigger. *Click*. When you open your eyes again, the crosshairs should still be on target.

-If the crosshairs have moved, shift your entire body left or right to get back on target, do not move the rifle.

- Run the bolt again and go through another dry fire or two until you are comfortable, not straining or forcing your body into position in any way and confident nothing is moving.

- Now that you are lined up perfectly, the only part of you that moves is your right arm to insert the mag and cycle the bolt and your toes to apply light but steady forward pressure against the bipod.

-Slowly insert the magazine and close the bolt.

-When ready, begin firing, paying attention to not move anything but your right arm to run the bolt, breathing, focusing on the target and squeezing the trigger, round after round. Pretend your cheek is glued to that stock.

-Be cognizant of any canting after each shot, make sure the reticle is straight.


Here is a vid of the proper prone position with rifle and bipod.

 
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Things that effect groups.
Mirage from warm barrel. Clean only when it needs to be, say every 150 rounds or so. Some barrels take 20 rounds before they settle down again.
One other thing is some barrels aren't going to ever achieve the same results as other barrels. The difference in how you hold the stock against your shoulder could be the reason for the group size. Be consistent in how you do the set up before the shot. Take a piece of 2'X6' piece of carpet to stop the bipod from sinking. I have read some interesting stuff at accurate shooter dot com in how to get set up.
 
J996 said:
Ok let's tackle this problem.

First let's rule out your reloading, there are just too many variables to know what is going on there over the internet. Buy a box or two of FGMM, grab your SIG and head to the range. You will need a rear bag.

Second, there is likely nothing wrong with your bipod as long as it is attached properly so check it and leave it on there.

Use the following procedure, practice it and let us know if anything improves, shooting prone takes practice, I've been doing it for 20 years in one form or another:



-Place your rifle on the ground in front of you, point it directly at the target and place your mag(s) and rear bag right next to it.

-Take a few steps back, then fall in directly behind your rifle, legs straight and out to the sides, feet flat, arms out in front of you.

-Slide forward and place the rifle butt into your shoulder, pushing forward with your toes, load the bipod.

-The rifle should be parallel to your spine, directing recoil straight down your body.

- The rifle should now be held in position by just your shoulder and the bipod, trapping it there. Elbows are on the ground, forearms straight out.

- Now bring your head down and rest it on the cheekpiece.

- Shift your entire body left or right until the crosshairs line up on the target, do not move the rifle.

-With your left hand, pick up the rear bag and place it under the rear of the butt, keeping a grip on it with your support hand.

- Let your cheek sink down onto the cheekrest, pushing the rifle down onto the rear bag, placing the crosshairs on the target.

-With your magazine still out of the rifle and moving nothing but your right arm, run the bolt so you can do a dry fire.

-Once lined up, close your eyes, then begin squeezing the trigger. *Click*. When you open your eyes again, the crosshairs should still be on target.

-If the crosshairs have moved, shift your entire body left or right to get back on target, do not move the rifle.

- Run the bolt again and go through another dry fire or two until you are comfortable, not straining or forcing your body into position in any way and confident nothing is moving.

- Now that you are lined up perfectly, the only part of you that moves is your right arm to insert the mag and cycle the bolt and your toes to apply light but steady forward pressure against the bipod.

-Slowly insert the magazine and close the bolt.

-When ready, begin firing, paying attention to not move anything but your right arm to run the bolt, breathing, focusing on the target and squeezing the trigger, round after round. Pretend your cheek is glued to that stock.

-Be cognizant of any canting after each shot, make sure the reticle is straight.


Here is a vid of the proper prone position with rifle and bipod.

Click to expand...

I'm sure there isn't anything wrong with his bipod either but it does take proper technique to shoot well off of a flimsy Harris bipod.
Next you want him to buy ~$50 - ~$100 worth of ammo and "hope" he can follow all your bipod directions to the letter? If after he does both and groups tighten up, we still won't know where the fault lies.

I'd start with what he's got. If he's developed a load, we have to go with the fact that he has a good grasp on loading. Shooting his developed loads off of bags front and rear will give us a much clearer picture of whether this is a bad load for his rifle or he's just struggling with his technique on the bipod.
If that fails, a box of FGMM would be a good next step shot off of bags. If that groups well, we know right there that it's a load problem.
Let's rule out one thing at a time or we'll never really know what needs the focus of our attention.

Thank you for your excellent step by step instruction on proper bipod shooting. It should be one of the first things people read when trying to shoot "precision / tactical" rifles in the field.
 
I am by no means an expert like some of the guys on here but reality is your 140 yard groups are pretty good. As Yodave mentioned there are alot of talkers out there but very few walkers. Lots of guys will talk about doing the challenges next week but something always seems to come up...

As for suggestions I would recommend using a different brass than federal. I just started reloading last year and have only used Lapua and it is great. I dont fool around with any of that prep work and just load it and go and have good results. I do the resize, trim, chamfer thing on my first reload. I am not a pro bench rest shooter though so your requirements may differ than mine. I also am not a huge fan of Hornady bullets. I use to shoot Hornady match out of my 308 and things were all over the place. I like the Lapua Scenars but you could try Bergers or something else.

Also, dryfire the crap out of that thing. The dime drill is good practice at getting the trigger pull down right and making sure you are not imparting any sideways pressure on the trigger or jerking it.

Keep us posted on the progress.
 
Something not mentioned yet. If you are looking for long range loads, shoot long range. Stretch the rifles legs at 300m and you will see how vertical dispersion impacts your groups. I would take your best load and test +/- 0.3gr of powder. Shooting at distance will show you a lot about your shooting skills and test the consistency in your loading practice. You are trying to achieve 1/2 moa in vertical or better. Then you will see the fruits of your labour on the subject. 100m shooting is best saved for the worst conditions day to get some idea of a promising load. It is really out there where you are expecting to shoot that really matters. Have fun...the journey is only beginning.

Also thought to mention pay particular attention to your set up at the bench or prone. Lots of items affect vertical dispersion. So be sure to ensure rear bag is at 1" from your butt plate, enure rifle balance is not too far back or forward, look into a solid rear bag set up (heavy sand and bunny ears), and the list goes on. You can search the net for some great ideas to help you get there faster. Have a look at what the F class guys use as their set ups. Nothing wrong with using a harris style bipod, but it takes more practice and effort to shoot it well and consistently. A solid front and rear rest or fixed heavy bipod will help eliminate those WTF shots. And be sure to practice follow through with the shot as I have leared that seeing your bullets vapour trail to the target helps a lot in LR shooting. My two bits on the subject.
 
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Shooter ----/ said:
I'm sure there isn't anything wrong with his bipod either but it does take proper technique to shoot well off of a flimsy Harris bipod.
Next you want him to buy ~$50 - ~$100 worth of ammo and "hope" he can follow all your bipod directions to the letter? If after he does both and groups tighten up, we still won't know where the fault lies.

I'd start with what he's got. If he's developed a load, we have to go with the fact that he has a good grasp on loading. Shooting his developed loads off of bags front and rear will give us a much clearer picture of whether this is a bad load for his rifle or he's just struggling with his technique on the bipod.
If that fails, a box of FGMM would be a good next step shot off of bags. If that groups well, we know right there that it's a load problem.
Let's rule out one thing at a time or we'll never really know what needs the focus of our attention.

Thank you for your excellent step by step instruction on proper bipod shooting. It should be one of the first things people read when trying to shoot "precision / tactical" rifles in the field.
Click to expand...

Well Shooter I can't argue with that, you make a good point. Bagging his rifle down solid on a bench to test his reloads is the first thing he should do.

Also I seem to have missed it before, OP get rid of the sock with popcorn and get yourself a proper rear bag.
 
Based on what you guys have mentioned I am going to do a few things:

Invest in a better rear bag. Popcorn is light but leaves something to be desired.

Try my loads off of two bags instead of the bipod.

When I do shoot off the bipod I have been loading with my back, not my toes. I will change that. Also placing it on carpet is a good idea as it digs a hole in the dirt which changes the point of aim.

I will look for FGMM but I have not seen any at my local gun stores, just Hornady Match which I use as a test load occasionally. My ammo usually shoots considerably better.



I know Federal brass isn't the best but it's what I had to start with and I have enough to last me a while.

Also I moved my scope back one notch on he rail as I felt I was leaning forward more than I liked.

Thank you again everyone for all the tips.
 
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