new barrels for .303 Lee enfield?
- Thread starter Woodsman
- Start date
A new custom barrel would cost more than the rifle is worth. Don't know of any supply of new surplus barrels, used ones turn up from time to time. Is the rifle sported? If so, unless it is a really nice sporter, the cost of installing a replacement military barrel could still cost more than buying another sported rifle. If it shoots well enough for the intended purpose, just use it as is.
Woodsman said:
I bought a minty No 4 Mk 1 barrel on ebay, I have like $105 into it. My gunsmith charges $50 to install a barrel, so, kind of expensive to go that route...for $120 or so you could probably go to a few gunstores and find another sportered Lee Enfield with a nice shiny barrel, then you'd have some extra parts too...
gun shows are always littered with enfields. i agree with cantom, just buy another rifle for $70-$150 and swap barrels.
if the rifle really means alot to you $600 would get a top quality new barrel installed. there's no comparison between sentimental and practical value.
if the rifle really means alot to you $600 would get a top quality new barrel installed. there's no comparison between sentimental and practical value.
Back when the CFC was charging $25 for each rifle registration, Ellwood Epps had a barrel full of $20 SMLE barrels that were taken from recievers that were chopped up. I wish that I bought one then, as my Lithgow has a pitted bore, but it was probably the cost of rebarrelling that kept me from buying it. You could always try calling places like Marstar and perhaps a few other gunstores to see if they have decent used barrels for cheap and perhaps find a gunsmith that does not charge too much. If you are lucky, you might be able to do it for about the same cost as getting another sporter .303.
Woodsman said:
Just a suggestion here but if a good bore-cleaning with Kroil and a paste such as JB doesn't help, you might try fire-lapping it lighty then slugging the bore and getting some of Steve Redgwell's "Mk 9" 200 gr. bullets, which he can supply in sizes larger than the "standard" .311 if the bore is a little worn. I just checked his website (303british.com) and I notice there is no mention of the Mk 9 at the moment- he may just be out of stock. But it's probably worth dropping him a line anyway. Mind you, if it "still shoots OK", maybe it's best to just leave it as is?
StuartBetter yet, stay the hell away from fire lapping and hand-lap the barrel. Making a hand lap is easy, hand lapping is easy, and you don't put so much wear on the throat/ball seate.josquin said:
Further to that, if you're not afraid of cast bullets, you can hand lap that barrel until it shines like a mirror again (within reason). After that, your choice: you can buy oversize jacketed bullets, or buy a mould that will throw bullets of the diameter you want. A 200 grain cast bullet with a big flat meplat will do every bit as good on game as a jacketed bullet I suspect - and will go every bit as fast as the jacketed jobs, if not faster.
And true, if it shoots just fine as is, then you can choose to continue to enjoy it as is.
Rick said:
From what I have read, even hand-lapping has its dangers if you don't keep the strokes absolutely even. But yes, fire-lapping does tend to "go at" the leade first. However, competitive shooters like David Tubb use it- in fact he markets his own fire lapping kit, so there must be some merit in it.
I lapped the bore of one of my .303's and it did smooth out the bore a little and didn't hurt anything. (Rick may say I was lucky
) As I recall, it had a basically good bore but I could feel a little roughness when I ran a tight patch down it and the lapping smoothed that out. But you do have to be very careful and not do the "if one drop is good, therefore two must be better" thing. The best barrel makers do hand-lap their bores, not fire-lap them. You have much more control over the process if you hand-lap. But if it shoots OK as it is, I'd just give it a good scrubbing with Kroil and some JB Bore Paste and leave it at that, discretion being the better part of valour, as they say. You'd be surprised how much gunk Kroil will remove. I picked up an old Martini .303 carbine and the bore looked awful. I wore out a couple of brushes scrubbing it with Kroil, followed by dozens and dozens of patches that came out black for ages. (As it turned out, the bore was badly pitted and couldn't be made to shoot well, so I picked up a decent barrel from a NºIII SMLE which will eventually be fitted to it.)
Woodsman, you don't say where you're located, but the Bullet Barn in Sechelt, B.C., does very good cast bullets, including gas-checked 200 gr. for the .303. If you really have an oversize bore you might have to cast your own, but if it shoots jacketed bullets OK (and you didn't specify what you meant by "OK"), the bore may be close to the correct size.
StuartI suppose, but it would be difficult to screw up if even the most basic common sense is used. The hand lap is only going to cut where the bore/lap is tight - not where it is loose. So you start at the tight spots and work your way along until the feel is consistent through the entire bore. Actually pretty easy - also very boring. Tom Gray (builds a lot of cast bullet benchrest rifles) says that with a little experience you can feel the difference of a ten thou in the barrel. I am inclined to agree with him.josquin said:
I don't suppose the primary reason could be filthy lucre? I don't know what kind of barrels he uses, but I'll bet they're the best available. And if I were a fly on the wall, I'll bet that whatever fire lapping he does do, there is very little of it done. The kind of custom barrels guys like him get arrive in a condition that is almost as close to perfect as possible.
Consider this: how many custom barrel makers do you know that fire lap their barrels instead of hand lapping? It would actually be cheaper to cut a rough chamber in the end of barrels for a short stubby cartridge, and quickly fire ten rounds or so of bullets coated with lapping compound, then cut the chamber portion off, than to have some gifted barrel maker spending hours making laps, hand lapping, etc.
Anyways, whatever floats your boat. However, I have found hand lapping to get much more predictable results than fire lapping. And the left over lap makes an excellent barrel cleaning accessory...
Rick said:
It's something I should learn to do for the next time I pick up a rifle withan iffy bore. (I have that old Martini barrel to practice on.) What are you using for lapping compound?
I don't know if David T's kit is "purely for the money" but I'm sure you're right, he likely does VERY little lapping. As you say, barrels of that grade (Krieger et al) are already polished to perfection. I should check his website and see what he says about it. I think he may use it as a restorative process, as he shoots more rounds in a year than we probably do in a dozen. As to barrel makers fire lapping, as I stated before, they all hand lap, for the very reason that Tom Gray gives- total control of the process.
StuartClover compound. Do it once and you'll never firelap again, I suspect. The first thing that will get your attention is how easily you feel the tight and loose spots in the bore.josquin said:
I have my grandfather's 1895 Winchester, over a hundred years old now, chambered for 30 US. When it came into my hands the exterior and mechanism was still in good shape, but the bore was pretty rough. Accuracy with jacketed and cast was pretty miserable. I went to town on it with a lap and by the time I finished it was a .303, not a .30. (of course, my Husqvarna 30/06 arrived new with a bore that slugged more like a .303 and it shot pretty darn good that way). .308 bullets in that oversize 1895 bore shot better than they did in the properly sized bore before I lapped the roughness out. .303 jacketed shoot even better yet. But best of all, 200 grain cast bullets with big flat meplates go about two inches off the bench - and as my eyes get older those iron sights are getting to be more of a challenge. They're not lazing along at 1500 fps or whatever, either, they're hunting loads.
Shot one elk with it just to prove the point, elk didn't seem to know he was undergunned. Now my favorite rifle for casual afternoon walks for whitetails; it isn't anywhere's near the best or most accurate rifle I own, but I like to take it on those little hunts to remind me of my grandfather and dad who owned and hunted with it before me.
Personal opinion only, but I think a lot of shooters these days really miss the boat in wringing best performance out of old rifles through the use of hand lapping and proper bullet casting techniques.
Sgt Striker
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What kind of an Enfield does he have, as I've got a box of SMLE barrels some where, and should be able to find one with a good bore for him, at a reasonable cost. PM me if you want.
Just remember to use pure lead when you pour your lap - WW will frustrate the hell out of you, BN is too hard. Don't get too obsessed with getting it super polished as you work through to finer compounds. Lilja has said barrels can actually be too smooth internally, and he probably knows what he is talking about. Steve Jennings told me once he really went to town on one of his match cast bullet barrels. Polished it to some insane degree like 1200 grit or so - said he nearly wore his arm out using those fine grits. Not only did it not improve matters any, but with his borescope he saw the barrel was back to about the way it looked with 400 grit (if I remember the compound correctly) in fairly short order. His belief was that the grit deposited in the barrel by the primer and powder acts as a lapping compound as well, and is much coarser than the finer Clover compounds.josquin said:
I start with 180 grit, although you could certainly go lower than that with a barrel in rougher shape. 180 cuts pretty good. Followed by 220 or 240, finish up with 320 or 400. 400 will give your arm a pretty good workout... it takes a while. I think those grit numbers are right - I'm not at home right now. They're close, anyways.
Actually, in respect to earlier comments about damaging the barrel, that's worth mentioning. I think the biggest risk is somebody gets tired, in a hurry, and careless. They start jerking the cleaning rod back and forth through the bore without controlling it, and the clover compound that gets on the cleaning rod can damage the throat. When you get bored with lapping, it's a good time to go do something else for a while.
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Thanks for this. I have used pure lead (fishing weights) for slugging the bore and I know how hard those Bullet Barn bullets are (BHN 22, as I recall. They must quench them as well).
Interesting about the grits. I would naturally have assumed "the finer the better" and was a bit surprised to see that the Wheeler kit I have contained 220, 320 and 600 and nothing finer. Maybe I'll have another go at the Martini!
However, I don't know that it's likely to get better than this:
and that's after the Kroil and 2,000 patches! Pretty rough. I can't remember what the bore slugged out at.
I've read that getting the lap started is the dangerous part as it is easy to damage the crown and beginning of the bore as the lap enters. I think if I had the room I'd almost be inclined to make some sort of a jig or rest to lay the lapping rod on to minimize starting it crooked.
Stuart
Interesting about the grits. I would naturally have assumed "the finer the better" and was a bit surprised to see that the Wheeler kit I have contained 220, 320 and 600 and nothing finer. Maybe I'll have another go at the Martini!
However, I don't know that it's likely to get better than this:
and that's after the Kroil and 2,000 patches! Pretty rough. I can't remember what the bore slugged out at.
I've read that getting the lap started is the dangerous part as it is easy to damage the crown and beginning of the bore as the lap enters. I think if I had the room I'd almost be inclined to make some sort of a jig or rest to lay the lapping rod on to minimize starting it crooked.
StuartAfter you cast the lap in the bore, push it partway out, and trim the end if necessary. Apply your paste, and draw the lap back into the barrel. Don't remove it completely. You can't start it crooked if the lap never leaves the barrel.
Don't know anything about them. I would assumed they would have looked at the economics of purchasing WW metal in bulk versus a designated alloy. I do know that if I were a commercial casting firm, I would heat treat instead of drop quench - a great deal more control over final BHN, and more uniform hardness from bullet to bullet. Also allows to specifically choose a BHN for your finished product in an attempt to match expected operating pressures of the loads your customers will probably be using. And easier to make your suggested loads (if you provide them) have a greater chance of success in customer's firearms.josquin said:
Steve Jennings knew more about barrels and bullets than I'm ever likely to learn in several lifetimes. And he had (or had access to) a very expensive borescope which I don't have. I've never had any interest in following his lead and polishing to a 1000 grit finish or whatever to confirm what he told me was correct. You will find once you get into the 400 or so grit finishes, you have a very fine finish indeed.
From the picture you attached, I would say you can improve that bore quite a bit with hand lapping. The beauty of the cast bullet is you can adjust bullet diameters to fit just about any bore/groove diameters you want. You can either lap the mould out as well so it throws the diameters you want, or get NEI or Mountain Moulds to make something that drops bullets at your exact specifications.
For example, NEI makes a 200 grain .316" bullet mould that would probably be the cat's ass (or, at least as likely to bring success as anything else). You could shoot it as is, size down a thou or two - or simply have NEI cut it a thou or two bigger in size. if more is required. I expect if you were to get that barrel down to somewhere in the .316 - .318" diameter range, most of the pitting and corrosion is going to disappear.
Hmmm... well, you're working from the chamber end, so damaging the crown should be difficult, except for ham-fisted bubba's. You pour the lap, push it out slightly to cut the "mushroom" off the end so the lap will completely enter the barrel, coat the lap with Clover, and then start working from the muzzle to the ball seat. You mark your cleaning rod - so the lap should never completely exit the muzzle or enter the throat anyways. If it does, you simply carefully realign the lap with the lands and grooves (it's the only way it will go back in anyways), and back into the barrel it goes. The odd tap or two with a brass rod from the front to bump it up in diameter as you progress, and that's about all there is to it.
That lap is dead soft, and I can't see how one or two instances of having to restart it into the barrel is going to do a significant amount of cutting - it takes a LOT of work to make progress as you lap the imperfections out of a barrel. Unless you're using a really aggressive grit, of course.
For the faint of heart (not a bad thing with a treasured firearm), practice lapping a junked barrel. You'll get a feel for the process and you won't have to go to the gym for your workout that day... As you mentioned the original barrel is due for replacing, have a go at keeping it all original by lapping that barrel out to a decent finish. You'll be no worse off than you are now, and you may salvage an original barrel that right now is a write off.
You mentioned you couldn't remember what the bore slugged at. As that appears to be a five groove barrel, how did you get your measurements?
Rick,
I may have a go at the Martini barrel, just for practice. I'm sure it can be polished up but as I have no real interest in casting my own bullets, if it does end up oversize, well, I have an SMLE barrel waiting to be fitted anyway. As to slugging a 5-groove barrel to determine the size, as I recall that was one of the problems. This was a year or so ago so I can't remember all the details.
Stuart
I may have a go at the Martini barrel, just for practice. I'm sure it can be polished up but as I have no real interest in casting my own bullets, if it does end up oversize, well, I have an SMLE barrel waiting to be fitted anyway. As to slugging a 5-groove barrel to determine the size, as I recall that was one of the problems. This was a year or so ago so I can't remember all the details.
StuartCasting - especially for the old warhorses - is not quite that dramatic. One day of casting will net you at least a couple of year's worth of bullets. The provocative part here is more often than not, a well selected and cast bullet will outperform jacketed and other factory stuff by a wide margin. If you just want to hear 'er go boom and feel the kick, I guess that's not important, but I like seeing the old ones perform to their full potential.josquin said:
A machinist with the proper v-blocks could do it for you. Otherwise, there's an old cast bullet gunsmith in the US, that does it as a service for free - you just send him the sample and a self addressed envelope.
