New DCRA Targets, Thoughts Strategies

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Trevor60

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Was reading on the DCRA match thread about the new smaller V bull target. For those of you who have shot it could you provide your thoughts and startegies.

I have been hearing that guys are moving away from the 1/4 min scopes and choosing the 1/8 min models.

Other thoughts are people now shooting more on the downwind side of the target to stay in the 10 ring...if the winds lets up their still in the 10.

Thanks
Trevor
 
I haven't shot at the New V Bull on the DCRA targets yet, but at Northstar range Alot of us F, F/O class shooters have been going out on our own and shooting at the 300m target to 800 yrds and the 500yrd target from 900 and beyond. We find it more of a challenge and makes you work harder. The only problem we have found with that though is when we go to matches and shoot the standard TR style targets, the V Bull looks aweful big. A few of us have been contemplating shooting a few matches with the 300m and 500yrd targets just to see the results.:confused: I have heard that in Alberta they us the 1/2MOA bull for their shoot offs, but don't take that as fact, just something I heard through the grape vine.
 
The smaller V-bull is just for F-class. I am not sure if it will be used all the time during TR/F-class events as squading may be a bit of a pain.
1/8 min scopes might be OK if you are not shooting in fast switching winds. How fast can you count clicks from 3 minutes right to 2 left? That would be
8 clicks X 5 minutes or 40 clicks to move 5 minutes. Remember you have 45 seconds to shoot.
With the V's counted as V's just for the sake of tie breaking, you don't lose any points by shooting a bull 5. Most will likely stay with 1/4 min and just aim off a little more carefully.
 
new target size

My only concern is:

I want to make certain that they leave the V Bull in the center and don't try moving it around on us.:runaway: Other than that concern, I don't care how small they make it.
 
Maynard:
First, a good solid, damn near absolute wind zero is a must!!
When conditions are within 4 minutes of either side, we usually leave the scope centered and hold off for each shot. There is a simple count system we've devised that calls each line a whole number, and 1/2 counts are midrings. You have to know the values of the rings of the target you are shooting. Are US targets are pretty easy cause each ring is, for the most part one minute larger than the next.

If there is a prevailing wind from one side, we often preload in that direction to the mean and hold off shots from there.

Cranking the wind knob constantly is a waste of time and opens up a greater probability of misscounting.

As far as strategies for 1/2 size rings, I have not changed anything except to try to make more precise doping calls. It's now all about not shooting 4's, or 9's Only time I side stack a group is in a building or recessive wind from one side.

HTH

Alan

PS: My two NSX w/ 1/4's are closer to 1/3rds -- so I invariably end up holding my elevation off a bit
 
HPBT said:
I haven't shot at the New V Bull on the DCRA targets yet, but at Northstar range Alot of us F, F/O class shooters have been going out on our own and shooting at the 300m target to 800 yrds and the 500yrd target from 900 and beyond. We find it more of a challenge and makes you work harder. The only problem we have found with that though is when we go to matches and shoot the standard TR style targets, the V Bull looks aweful big. A few of us have been contemplating shooting a few matches with the 300m and 500yrd targets just to see the results.:confused: I have heard that in Alberta they us the 1/2MOA bull for their shoot offs, but don't take that as fact, just something I heard through the grape vine.
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500 target at 900/1000 will do the trick... stay centered up on it you'd do just fine... I saw the photos of the range in another thread... very nice. Hope you can get more folks out to your shoots... even if they use the regular targets...
 
Hope you can get more folks out to your shoots... even if they use the regular targets...
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Sounds pretty high falutin' and snotty, John.:p

Was reading on the DCRA match thread about the new smaller V bull target. For those of you who have shot it could you provide your thoughts and startegies
Click to expand...
On overcast days I found the 1/2 MOA V-bull line easy to distinguish with my 36X Leupold. This (I felt) reduced vertical errors. The aiming point was more precise. However, on sunny days with mirage I'm pretty much quartering the pie.

I have been hearing that guys are moving away from the 1/4 min scopes and choosing the 1/8 min models.
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Not me! Given the group dispersion at 1000 yards, aiming errors, your hold on every shot...I think 1/8 MOA adjustments are too fine.

Terry Perkins
 
Terry Perkins said:
Sounds pretty high falutin' and snotty, John.:p


On overcast days I found the 1/2 MOA V-bull line easy to distinguish with my 36X Leupold. This (I felt) reduced vertical errors. The aiming point was more precise. However, on sunny days with mirage I'm pretty much quartering the pie.


Not me! Given the group dispersion at 1000 yards, aiming errors, your hold on every shot...I think 1/8 MOA adjustments are too fine.

Terry Perkins
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Not meant to be Terry... I'd like a chance to go out there and shoot but my job makes if very difficult to schedule anything like that... but I might try at some point...

I meant I hope they can get more folks out to join them and increase their numbers... not a dis... as Tom mentioned the squadding... with the two types of target faces... how to organize it and keep everybody happy... easier to use the regular targets


they have the makings of a good range there and I'll bet the targets go up and down pretty smoothly on those frame designs...
when the wind is really blowing at Mons I've found it difficult to run the target back up quickly... seemed to bind on the rollers a bit... their system of moving them up and down might be better dunno...

guess the 1/8 depends... I noticed a lotta times that a 1/4 was too much throw you from one side of the V to the other and usually out a little... and where do you hold on a heavier mirage... there's no fine edge to line up against with it bouncing around... I seemed to have better luck holding dead centre and turning the knobs for some of it...
 
This reminds me of my old Hunter Class Benchrest days, were the target is a 1/2 MOA bull and a tiny dot for an X (.16" I think). Anyway, in the old days, before the 1/8 click, we just held off a hair. Then the 1/8 click's came out and everyone got 'em, but guess what, they are more like 1/6 MOA clicks (the ones I have anyway) and you can still miss that dot and you are back to holding off.

I click for best true zero for the yardage/winds for the match and hold off for the wind changes, same as I did in HBR, and if I need more than 1 MOA hold off, then I'll click. I really don't like holding on the edge of the aiming mark, or the edge of the 5, been burned out there too on a fast switching tail wind, but either way, holding or clicking, you get burned on these types of winds.

Do you think if we, man, evolved more as LR shooters, like animals evolve, could we grow eyes in the back of our heads or those swivel one's some reptiles have? That would be handy eh!
 
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Kodiak99317
The Kiwi's are a step ahead in the evolutionary process. Most of them shoot bare footed with their feet sticking up in the air.
 
Thanks for the responses great information so far.

If i understand correctly we want to get as near as possible to a true zero before we starting holding off. This statement seem to favor the 1/8 min scopes as I can theoretically get closer with 1/8 min scope assuming the scope actually click what is says (but that is another story) and hold off accordingly.


Terry Perkins said:
Not me! Given the group dispersion at 1000 yards, aiming errors, your hold on every shot...I think 1/8 MOA adjustments are too fine.

Terry Perkins
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Could you clarify aiming error, is this a function of scope power. I know with my 10x scope my ability to hold off accuracy diminishes at greater distances. Could it be that you want the highest power magnification possible, and that 36x power isn’t as effective as the 42x that Alan’s wife uses or the 50x that Mr. Kajfes used?
 
Trevor:
Let me clear up a misconception here. Vanessa and I both use an 8 to 32, and most times have it backed off to around 28 to 30. I'm of the opinoin that more power is not always better. Most times I find overpowering a scope only adds to the distortion due to mirage.

YMMV

Alan
 
Trevor60 said:
and that 36x power isn’t as effective as the 42x that Alan’s wife uses or the 50x that Mr. Kajfes used?
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What scopes are these? 42x, my guess is NightForce. 50x, a bumped Leo or Burris??

I too find 24x is about max for 1000 yd work on a hot summer's day. I've used 36x in BR, but only looking thru 100-300 yds of mirage :)

Keith
 
Kodiak99317 said:
What scopes are these? 42x, my guess is NightForce. 50x, a bumped Leo or Burris??

I too find 24x is about max for 1000 yd work on a hot summer's day. I've used 36x in BR, but only looking thru 100-300 yds of mirage :)

Keith
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Keith in my case a bumped Leup... I did some BR shooting and used a fixed 36 Tasco. I just transfered that scope to my f-class gun and ran with that for about 2-3 seasons when I started out. Then I screwed up a couple times in Ottawa just trying to get on. I was either 1 turn too far up or one turn too far down. ya I know it's not rocket science... but I do have trouble seeing those hashings on the turrets.

50 seems like a lot and probably is. I guess it's a little subjective dunno. Maybe I just compensate somehow for days when folks tell me they've got troubles with mirage.

Technically I should be able to dial it back down to about 25 but I've never done it but once and when I did I didn't shoot well. So the image or picture I see downrange I think I compensate better with more power, but that's just me. I don't think think I'd ever start a string and say the mirage went crazy and then dial back down partway through the string. I'll bet there'd be an impact change... in my scope.

Could we say that if you're starting out 25x might be where most folks should start or give consideration?

I have been looking at both the BR style and the NSX Nightforces... I have the Br on loan from a friend but still haven't had time to mess with it. It's the one with the 1/8 clicks and a pile of turns to get to 1000 yards but the turret seems to be marked better compared to my old fixed Tasco so I might not mess up with it. then again I like the Leups because two turns and you're well within getting your 1000 yard zero go one more or one less and you readily see... holy smoke that's way too high or two low a visual reminder which maybe folks just don't need dunno.

What I'd like to know about the Nightforces is if you change magnification do you get an impact change also? Guess I find that out when I mount it.

I think you should be able to see this. For example if you focused on a dot at 100 yards at 42X and carefully zoomed back out will you see movement in the crosshairs in any direction... I guess I can answer that by simply mounting the scope and trying it....

I also tend to agree with Alan in that I've always been a hold-over shooter but I've got a bud who's trying to convince me to crank. I'm having trouble doing it and I think it's related to what Alan said... also I wouldn't do this unless you know the clicks are repeatable... I would say the odds of them being repeatable is higher with Leups and Nightforce scopes over time... still with 1/8 it's a lot of clicking back and forth and this can be compounded by fast switching winds or if you shoot fast... that's why I've always favoured holding over... but you've got to watch out for or track subconsiously what you've got on the gun... if you've been dealing with a couple minutes of right wind and it goes left and you've got to get the shot off you'd better be holding over compensating for the right amount or your not going to like where that bullet will print!

Some folks don't have trouble doing it. I generally don't. If you come from a TR background then I'm sure you might consider clicking like crazy because that's what you've been used to... dunno never did TR outside...
again maybe it's another subjective thing...

I've shot long enough to know exactly what heavy mirage looks like and it's not pretty. When things are boucing around like crazy. Rings... what rings?... for me I just centre up on the mess and let it rip. Somehow I manage to compensate for where-ever the centre of the target it... maybe luck dunno... can't explain it...
 
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jkajfes,

I don't have a Night-Force myself, I've held one, clicked it. They have heavy hard-clinking massive mil-spec knobs that I didn't like myself. It was another customers at the smiths.

Congrats on your placing at Ottawa BTW.

I've got a fixed 16x Leupold. 30mm tubed Mark4 with side focus/AO, fine x-hair with a dot. She clicks nice and true. I've gotten into the habit of turn the AO to infinity after each yardage. This way, I remember to reset it for the next yardage. I also reset her to a 100 yd zero at the end of the day. These scopes have a ton of up in 'em and also windage in them.
 
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Alan my apologies I just assumed that you were shooting a Nightforce 12-42 like so many others I have read about. I guess an equipment list similar to Super Shoot would be a cool idea.

I have attempted to PM Larry Bartholome over at the Long Range Target Shooting board and asked him to join the discussion. If I recall correctly the chapter he wrote on shooting F class in the book “Precision Shooting at 1000 Yards” he started out with a 24x Weaver and moved up to 12-42 Nightforce. It would be interesting to get his views on the subject as he has switched from the 24x in favour of more maginifcation.

To continue the discussion Alan uses 28x30x power and will hold off 4 MOA before clicking and Kodiak uses a 16x power and turns if he is outside 1 MOA.

Mirage aside it seems to me that the higher magnification will allow a shooter to have a tighter aiming point because the target black is completely visible in the scope were as the 16x powers has a larger field of view but losses the ability to fine tune and may explain why Kodiak clicks when he is outside the 1 MOA.

If you hold over with the 16x power you can’t as accurately quarter the bull as you can with a 28x 30x. Does this seem right?
 
The better you can see the target ,the more accurate you can place your shot
IMHO
Higher magnification allows for better POA but also can frustrate with greater mirage.When Mirage is VERY heavy I dial down til a usable sight picture is available.
When mirage is low I crank full power (42) .I guess most of the time I tend to shoot around the 20 to 25 power range.Variable power and side focus is a blessing!!!!
 
Kodiak99317 said:
jkajfes,

I don't have a Night-Force myself, I've held one, clicked it. They have heavy hard-clinking massive mil-spec knobs that I didn't like myself. It was another customers at the smiths.

Congrats on your placing at Ottawa BTW.

I've got a fixed 16x Leupold. 30mm tubed Mark4 with side focus/AO, fine x-hair with a dot. She clicks nice and true. I've gotten into the habit of turn the AO to infinity after each yardage. This way, I remember to reset it for the next yardage. I also reset her to a 100 yd zero at the end of the day. These scopes have a ton of up in 'em and also windage in them.
Click to expand...

thanks for the compliment,
This season is kinda winding down, but I'd sure like to have tried the loaner 1/8 NF... maybe just maybe we can squeak it in before the snow flies. I don't do much after that till spring again....call me weak!

I've been doing that also going back to infinity with my side A/O after reading some backlash posts... and I've also been resetting to 100 zero and coming up to each yardage as necessary... Gordo put me on to this, seems to be working well, thanks Gord!

Also I had the turrets swapped out for those big ones that don't need the caps... I had the caps before... forever loosing or misplacing them. Also I could be wrong but they seem to have bolder markings on them great for my eyes and yes the positive clicking...

One aspect that maybe folks should keep any eye on or at least think about is travel of the erector internally or whatever it's called... figure out how much elevation is built into the scope divide it in half and that should be where the crosshairs are best through the glass... then figure if you need a 10, 15 or 20 sloped rail to kept the hairs in this sort of ideal area. I don't think you want to be shooting through or around the edges or maximums... what's also nice is in most of my setups I can still be back down to a 100 zero for spot checks...

some may find if they don't do the research that yup the can get on at 1000 but they can't get back down to 100... now maybe some just don't feel they need it or that it's required. Some might be very comfortable zeroing up at 300, spinning their turrets to zero there and they're done with it. They are even able to bore sight easily and get on a 300 9 times out of ten.

others may not be as quite gifted or as focused. I've seen fellows at my local range where I test have a heck of time setting up scopes or zeroing them.

I switch barrels a lot, that's part of the design of our guns. With a scope that can get you back down to 100, it's easier to setup a target at that distance, bore sight and your on or you've got if figured out in a couple shots.

I guess we're way off topic discussing this all here under this topic but I hope folks won't mind...
 
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