New in Collecting - Mauser Karabiner 98k

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Bochemann

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Hello fellow CGN members, I'm new on the forum as well as in collecting milsurps, just want to drop in and say hi :) I also have a few questions regarding the German Mauser Karabiner 98k Rifles which I hope to purchase in the very-very near future :) I'm hoping you experts can help me out with a few questions...

1. A little off topic, but can you fellows tell me what "milsurp" really means? I looked it up in dictionary but cannot locate the word. :(

2. Can you please tell me, in which time period were the best quality Mauser 98k Rifles (in terms of material used and workmanship) made? Because I've heard from some that the later WWII-period 98k's are somewhat lower in quality compared to the pre-WWII ones. Can anyone tell me which years were the best 98k's made?

3. I was looking on Wikipedia and noticed that for weight, the 98k's ranged from 3.7 kg to 4.1 kg. Can you guys tell me why the difference in weight? Is it due to the material of the barrel or the wood stock? If so, which materials are lighter and which ones are heavier?

4. I also have a few terms I hope to learn. Can you tell me what does "strong rifling" means? And which area of a rifle is the "bore"? And lastly what is a "mum"?

Sorry for the lack of knowledge, but I did looked through the internet and this forum, and even though I found most of my answers some remain as you can see :redface: Thanks in advance, appreciate your help !! :)
 
Welcome to CGN Bochemann.

To answer a couple of your questions:
1."milsurp" is a contraction of the phrase "military surplus". We're too lazy to type all the extra letters.:)

4. "Strong rifling" is normally used to indicate that the bore of the barrel still has very visible rifling.

The "bore" is the hollow part of the barrel that the bullet comes out of.;)

"Mum" refers to the Chrysthanthemum flower stamping that was applied to the receiver of Japanese service rifles. A "mum" can be intact, peened, or ground off.

Our Mauser experts can help with your other two questions.
 
Thank you Stevo, I'm enlightened :) So "mum" is only used in Japanese rifles? I think I recall seeing it used with a few KAR98 posts too... I might be wrong. Thanks so much tho Steve :)
 
Welcome Bochemann ....... :)

Before you run out and buy any kind of a K98k, you should spend some time reviewing the posts in our German Service Rifles section of our MKB (Milsurp Knowledge Library) ... click herehttp://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=127.

These K98k rifles are some of the worst offenders when it comes to fakery in milsurp collecting. Also, a lot of folks often buy a post war RC (Russian capture) or Yugo rebuild, paying big dollars because they thought they were getting a true German wartime built and untouched K98k. I met a guy last month at our gun club, who showed me his $1500 vet bring back K98k, that was actually an RC that was worth probably $400-$500 tops. Nice rifle, but it wasn't what he thought he was buying and the seller told him "you wanted a K98k, so I sold you a K98k, what's your problem?" ...........

There's an entire section on German Service Rifles (click here)http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=857664, as well as a separate section on German Accessories and Research Material (click here)http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80303

Each post has a few pics of the rifle being featured, but there's usually a link that leads to a much larger ImageEvent photo montage series (100's of close-up pics) of each individual rifle. This can be an important reference when you're trying to compare small markings and inspector's stamps, if you're trying to determine authenticity of a piece, hence its value to you. The rifles you see in the MKB are 100% authentic, well researched and all correct. They are "all matching" and when compared to Backbone of the Wehrmacht (The German K98k Rifle, 1934 - 1945) by Richard D Law" (1993) - ISBN: 0-88935-139-2, you'll find they correlate well, although even his excellent book has some shortcomings.

Bottom line, before you buy something, post your options here and let the members help to make sure you get what you want at a fair price.

Hope this helps...... :)

Regards,
Badger
 
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Bochemann said:
Thank you Stevo, I'm enlightened :) So "mum" is only used in Japanese rifles? I think I recall seeing it used with a few KAR98 posts too... I might be wrong. Thanks so much tho Steve :)
Click to expand...

I can't think of any reason "mum" would be used in reference to a K98. But, I'm officially a Mauser-Free-Zone so my K98 knowledge is only basic.
 
I will chime in for question #2. While you will notice declining production standards as far as external finish and the degree that the stock is finished, the difference in performance between pre and period WW2 K98's is negligible. All K98's had to be manufactured and tested to have a standard degree of accuracy before they were released to the army or whoever. (well, until the very end when the volksturm weapons were produced). The early K98's usually cycle easier and consist of milled components. The later stuff is usually stamped parts. The early stuff has better fit and finish so cosmetically, they are the better K98 as far as workmanship.
From a collector's viewpoint, it really is personal preference. Some guys like the late stuff while some like the early stuff. I like 'em all!!!
 
Hi Bochemann, welcome!

Just to add, if you were to look at any rifle, it would be made up of some very, very basic parts.

1. The receiver - this is the "primary" part of the rifle. Usually made from milled high grade steel and very strong.

2. The barrel - this is screwed into the receiver. This is the bit where the bulets come out the end. The inside of the barrel is called the bore. When you remove the bolt and hold the rifle up to a light and look down the bore, you will see spiral grooves runing the entire length, from the breech (where the cartidge goes in) to the muzzle (where the bullet comes out).
Bore condition is very important if you actually want to shoot any milsurp rifle. Ideally, you want a bore that is bright and shiney with strong rifling (very visible, sharp rifling, that does not look pitted or rusty). Bores that are getting worn out will look like the grooves are rounded, and they will not appear as deep.

3. The bolt - this is usualy turned, and pulled back and forth to chamber cartridges in the breech, and remove spent casings (the brass part of the cartidge). It slides back and forth in the receiver. It contains the firing pin and extractor.

4. The stock - it is usually wood and holds the reciever, barrel all together.

5. Magazine- This is where you load the cartidges. so they can be stripped from the magazine and fed into the breech by the bolt.


Finally, the Chrysthanthemum is the symbol of the Japanese emperor. I have read the many of the mums were groung of at the end of the war by Japanese soldiers who did not want the "disgrace" of having foreigners having rifles with the mum on it, so most Japanese rifles for sale on the surplus market will have ground mums. There are intact mums, but not nearly as common as ground ones.
 
Don't put too much faith in BBOTW as it is flawed because it is based on one mans collection. Especially the data sheets for rifles by year and maker. Some is right, some is wrong. Even the fakers humping rifles were using the data in the book and and doing it wrong!
And there are humpers coming out of his collection today.
It is an interesting book though. Lots of good factory pictures, assembly line and testing, etc.
A good book to have, but it has errors just like any other book.
 
Stevo, I think you are right I just did a search and I think mums only applies to the Arisaka rifles :)

Steve1973, thanks for the info !! I too think it's reasonable to have less time spent on finishing and polishing, as long as it still shoots well :) Do you mind tell me though if you know material-wise did the quality of the steel decline ? or did they use the same steel till the end of the war ?

Deano, thanks for the explanation of the mums :) Also I REALLY appreciate you listing the parts of a rifle, that's what I hope to be educated on but too embarrass to ask :redface: Thanks so much now I know the parts :)

Coyote Ugly thanks for the lights up, I'll keep what you said in mind :)

BadgerDog, thanks for the wealth of info you provided with the links !! Also wanna say you really have a nice collection, especially the quality of your rifles !! :D The hundreds of pics in the albums really helps, but please don't mind when I post or PM some noob questions in the future :) Thanks sooo much !!
 
Heyy guys, sorry to bring an old topic back up. It's just that I was offered a few WWII-era German Mauser 98k's but I wasn't prepared to pay $900+ and also the fact that I don't think I can distinguish a real WWII German 98k from a post-war one.

Anyways, the reason I post today is I'm wondering if there are any Mauser 98k's that are 100% (or very very close) to a WWII German one? It's just that I think these ones should cost a little cheaper right? :) Well please tell me guys if you know, thanks !!!!
 
Actually, the closer you get to a German K98 as original (as in leaving the factory) the price goes up. This includes all matching original serial numbers and an unsanded stock. If you have a mismatched bolt or sanded stock or generally boinked rifled, the price goes down from there. The reason they are more expensive in their original state is that they are much more rare than reworks.

Reworks can have matching numbers but these often numbers were force matched after the war. I would do plenty of research if I was you before I put down hard cash for a K98 someone claimed as 'original all matching'. Sometimes people think they have a matching rifle but it is a forcematched example, either Yugo or East German.


I think what you are looking for, unless you want to get into the collecting game, is a Yugo reworked K98. They are originally made by the Germans but since they are reworked, are a lot cheaper than matching original examples. They are also great shooters.
 
steve1973 said:
Actually, the closer you get to a German K98 as original (as in leaving the factory) the price goes up. This includes all matching original serial numbers and an unsanded stock. If you have a mismatched bolt or sanded stock or generally boinked rifled, the price goes down from there. The reason they are more expensive in their original state is that they are much more rare than reworks.

Reworks can have matching numbers but these often numbers were force matched after the war. I would do plenty of research if I was you before I put down hard cash for a K98 someone claimed as 'original all matching'. Sometimes people think they have a matching rifle but it is a forcematched example, either Yugo or East German.


I think what you are looking for, unless you want to get into the collecting game, is a Yugo reworked K98. They are originally made by the Germans but since they are reworked, are a lot cheaper than matching original examples. They are also great shooters.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the lights up Steve :) Can you please tell me, appearance-wise, are the Yugo K98's identical to the German 98k's? And if they're not 100% identical, can you tell me where do they differ? Thanks !! :)
 
Welcome to CGN Bochemann
I'm somewhat new to the Mauser scene as well ( more of an Enfield nut... :D ) and still have a 1000 questions on these fine rifles.
If possible , get some photos of the rifle(s) and stampings in question and let these fellas have a better look ;)
 
Bochemann said:
Thanks for the lights up Steve :) Can you please tell me, appearance-wise, are the Yugo K98's identical to the German 98k's? And if they're not 100% identical, can you tell me where do they differ? Thanks !! :)
Click to expand...

Not 100% the same. The Yugos restamped the serial number on the side of the stock, also on the bolt handle. They reblued the rifles. Sometimes the swastikas are pinged out, and usually, the original receiver serial number is scrubbed and a new one stamped on the other side of the receiver ring.

Original K98k's that are matching and decent start at about $900 or so. Sorry to break the news...

Everything else seems to be answered except your weight question. The difference is because walnut stocked rifles are lighter than the beech laminate stocked rifles.

Lastly, the best made rifles (K98k) were made from 1936 to 1940. After that quality began a slow decline in fit and finish.
 
Bochemann said:
Thanks for the lights up Steve :) Can you please tell me, appearance-wise, are the Yugo K98's identical to the German 98k's? And if they're not 100% identical, can you tell me where do they differ? Thanks !! :)
Click to expand...
Appearance wise they are identical from 10ft away. They are afterall, german made K98's. Only the markings are different.
 
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