new to casting questions

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m102404

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I am going to start into casting and have never done it before. I have reloaded since the mid-90's so no issues with that and have used both gas checked and non-gas checked cast bullets, so have some general background of their use.

But never having melted/cast my own bullets, just purchased them all ready to reload, I'm hoping for a bit of info:
1. I plan on pre-lubing with liquid and then using one of the Lee push through sizer setups...
1a. Any "don't use that method because #####" type things to be aware of?
1b. I get that I'm supposed to lube before pressing them through...do I have to lube again after? Don't think so, just checking in.
1c. Can I use liquid lube and this resize method on non micro groove lube band bullets? i.e ones that you would normally see with a distinct band of wax? and vice versa....can you use a regular RCBS type lube/sizer on micro lube groove bullets?

2. Should I not use a Lyman pot type melter to melt/purify lead wheel weights? I'm wondering if it's not too small and while 'you can do it', it really amounts to more hassle than it's worth doing that part in a different or larger pot/setup?

3. I roughly know what speeds you can push non-gas checked lead bullets...but are you asking for leading problems if you shoot gas checked bullets without a gas check (at non gas checked bullet speeds)?

4. Is it not worth casting for some rifle rounds? For example, for 8mm Mauser, the typical load data velocities are up there...maybe above where a gas checked lead bullet 'should' be shot...can things be remedied/fixed/adjusted? i.e. by adding tin to harden or water quenching, etc? If I'm using wheel weights and am aiming to drive lower end loads for paper punching/plinking, would that be within reason...or not advised. Another example is .223 or .22-250...where I've typically driven those round pretty fast.

5. Not having been into casting before...I don't see gas checks for 8mm Mauser readily available. Any suggestions for sources? Related to question 3...the mold I can find for 8mm Mauser is made to take a gas check...if I shoot it without one am I just asking for frustration and leading issues?

6. Re. hardness...is there a good reference for what hardness is recommended for certain cartridges/speeds/calibers/etc...?

7. I've read of one gas check making tool...worth it, or one of those "I would have been better off just buying them" sort of thing?

I am planning on casting for 45/70, plinking 30/06, 8mm Mauser, .303, 500SW and maybe some other rifle calibers later on. If it was just one...say 45/70...I would just buy them and be done with it, but I'm feeling like the critical mass is there to do this. And for some rounds the 'affordable' lack of loaded ammo and components is pushing me to the make my own route.

Thanks in advance for any help you can chime in with, much appreciated!
 
I'll try to answer some of your questions;
1: Yes....generally speaking, you can use that method. Lee Liquid Alox will work on non-micro groove bullets. One caveat: The depth or width of the bullet's lube grooves will have a bearing on how much lube is retained. Hence, its ability to lubricate. Also, bullet velocity may also be a factor.
2: If you have a Lyman pot, it will work fine. A larger pot allows for more consistent alloy temperature and longer casting sessions between adding more lead.
3: A non-gas checked bullet is okay, provided you keep velocity down. This varies, but generally speaking, below 1500 fps.
4: There are plenty of internet resources for shooting cast bullets, including the 8mm Mauser. A good one: "Cast Boolits" forum. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition, should also have data. Two other sources which may be of interest: "Cast Bullet Loads for Military Rifles", authored by C.E. Harris. Also: "The Load", by C.E. Harris. Both are readily available, online.
5: 8mm Gas checks are available from Lyman. You can likely order them through one of the site sponsors. if not, factory direct from Lyman.
6: Others may disagree, but cast bullet diameter has more influence on such things as bore leading and overall accuracy, than alloy hardness. The worst offender: undersized bullets. One alloy I have found useful though, is Lyman #2 alloy. This consists of 9 lb of wheelweight lead, to 1 lb 50/50 plumber's solder. Not too hard, or too soft. Works well for most cast bullets, using smokeless powder. When using black powder or its substitutes, a softer alloy, or even pure lead is preferred, as it more easily obturates into the rifling. An advantage in those cases where a bullet is slightly undersized.
Where maximum penetration rather than expansion is the goal, a harder alloy bullet makes greater sense. In this case, adding more antimony to the mix works well. Other than on dangerous game, I can't think of another situation where really necessary. In most cases, plain old wheelweight lead will offer all the penetration and expansion one will need, especially for hunting. Likewise, for plinking or target shooting. Alloy mixes are useful though, where the goal is to manipulate cast bullet diameter. Especially when fine tuning bullet diameter to obtain a good fit in a particular rifle's bore. Generally speaking, bullets cast from harder alloys drop from the mould larger in diameter than those cast from pure lead. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook does a good job of showing the relationship of pure lead, to various alloys.
7: Gas checks are cheap and easy to make, from aluminum beverage cans. Aluminum gas checks can be made at a fraction of the cost of traditional copper ones. Plus, they work just as well. With the ever rising cost of copper, a gas check maker makes a good investment. Or, you can just buy them. Whichever route makes the most sense for your needs. If you plan on shooting a great deal, it may make sense to make your own.
I am sure there are others on this forum that may agree or disagree with this advice. But, hopefully this information is useful.
 
1a. i don't use liquid lube as i find it looks ugly and its messy (so is lube in the lube groove only though)
1b. you should lube after so as to get lube on the riding bands but i can't say that 100% for sure as i only liquid lubed for a month before i bought a lyman 4500 and haven't looked back.
1c. yes you can liquid lube non micro grooved bullets. i have tried using micro grooved bullets in my lyman 4500 and it did put a bit of lube in the groves but i didn't do enough to say that it works to prevent leading.

2. if your handy at all make one out of an old propane bottle or use a cast iron (no aluminum cast or not) or stainless steal pot for "smelting" wheel weights and other dirty lead for ingoting purposes. the dirt can mess up with bottom pour pots and clog them.

3. more or less any pistol bullets don't need gas checks, for rifle bullets i would opt for a gas check unless they are mouse fart loads. i have shot 105gr bullets on top of 23gr of h110 in my 357mag (almost 2000 fps) with no gas check (doesn't have the groove) and didn't have any leading after 50 rounds.

4. you can always use linotype for faster calibres or get into powder coating and gas checking bullets. i haven't kept up to date on powder coating over on cast boolits but i think they are shooting cast up to jacketed speeds.

5. hornady should make them, just a matter of finding a dealer. you can still get leading with gas checks but it mainly depends on fit to the barrel diameter.

6. again bullet size as compared to the barrel is the main thing to look after.

7. yo mamma will reply hehe.

those were answered quickly but should give you a decent idea to your questions until more people respond.

if you can find one you need a 700gr grand canyon mold for you 500mag, the only problem is how bloody quick it goes through lead, 10 bullets per pound....
 
So, I can't answer all your questions, but here is how I handled a few of your issues:

2. You've probably seen the U-tube videos of the guys with larger pots / turkey frier style burners. Also, there is a sticky that you want to review here on CGN about smelting lead. I've done probably 6 or 7 five gallon pails of wheelwrights over the years - that is, 25 or 30 ingots at a time - I am "cheap" and had time, so I did a handful of sorted lead wheelwrights at a time in a RCBS Cast pot on a propane camp stove, fluxed each pot-full at least twice with spruce or fir sawdust, and poured out into RCBS mold - wearing welding gloves, hold the handle, use channel locks on the little tab and pour away. Takes about 20 minutes or so to do a pot full - gets you 8 or 9 ingots each time. Last batch I did I tried using my Lyman "Big Dipper" 10 pound electric - worked fine (since I was out of propane!), but a rear pain in the arse to get the lead from that pot into ingots - not really set up to pour from!

6. I am using a Lee lead hardness tester kit. Fairly cheap. Works. Gives you a way to compare one mix to another. Also the Lee Handloading manual has a real good discussion about bullet hardness compared to desired pressure/velocity. I have the Lyman Cast Bullet manual on order - be interesting to compare it's information to Lee.
 
m102404: Did a bit more digging. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook does list several 8mm Mauser loads. You had asked about reference material regarding bullet alloys. Here is one you may find useful" "Cast Bullet Alloys & Alloy Maintenance", by Rick Kelter. Plenty of good information there. This is available online. Hope this is helpful.
 
Thanks to all for the additional reading references, much appreciated. Casting is a whole side of shooting I have yet to explore. Lyman big dipper kit is on its way, I researched a couple of punch/press designs for making gas checks (question/opinions wanted below), a mechanic friend of mine is putting aside wheel weights, lots and lots of new reading. Looked at powder/epoxy/elctroplating coatings...while the multiple application epoxy paint & bake seems good, I think it's too much work for my purposes at this point.

Re. gas checks...I do a bit of hobby lathe/mill stuff and am thinking of making up a press punch and cup former much like Tony Small's 'basic gas check making tools' on youtube.

Q- Are 'all' gas check bullet bases for a given caliber supposed to be the same? i.e. will all .30 cal gas check bullet bases have the same OD at it's base? Or is it more than likely that I may need to tweak various gas checks for different molds?

Purely guesswork at this point, but I suppose that I should cast a bunch of bullets...measure the base...guessing subtract 0.001-0.002" and use that for my ID of the gas check.

Q - As I understand things the purpose of the gas check is to prevent gas cutting of the bullet with stiffer loads...how critical is the OD of the gas check in relation to the bore? What sort of tolerance/clearance am I aiming for?
 
yomomma said:
Where are you located? I could give you a quick once through if you are in my are. I have a crap load of lead to turn into ingots and bullets
Click to expand...

I think this is your best option. He is pretty involved with the local guys.

He even has a great thread for #7 but I can't find it right now.
 
ok...things are coming along. Big dipper kit, ladle, .323 mold, handles, sizer, ingot mold and 8mm gas checks are all sorted. Wheel weights are accumulating, going to source out a pot/spoon/ladle to do the first melt. Propane ring all ready. Need to get a new face shield...can't see a thing through the old one. wife thinks I'm being stupid.... Everything's right on track....lol
 
Wow! Keep us posted. I been flirting with the idea of getting into casting as well.


m102404 said:
ok...things are coming along. Big dipper kit, ladle, .323 mold, handles, sizer, ingot mold and 8mm gas checks are all sorted. Wheel weights are accumulating, going to source out a pot/spoon/ladle to do the first melt. Propane ring all ready. Need to get a new face shield...can't see a thing through the old one. wife thinks I'm being stupid.... Everything's right on track....lol
Click to expand...
 
Answers added in bold
m102404 said:
I am going to start into casting and have never done it before. I have reloaded since the mid-90's so no issues with that and have used both gas checked and non-gas checked cast bullets, so have some general background of their use.

But never having melted/cast my own bullets, just purchased them all ready to reload, I'm hoping for a bit of info:
1. I plan on pre-lubing with liquid and then using one of the Lee push through sizer setups... works fine
1a. Any "don't use that method because #####" type things to be aware of? no
1b. I get that I'm supposed to lube before pressing them through...do I have to lube again after? Don't think so, just checking in. Works both ways.
1c. Can I use liquid lube and this resize method on non micro groove lube band bullets? i.e ones that you would normally see with a distinct band of wax? and vice versa....can you use a regular RCBS type lube/sizer on micro lube groove bullets? yes - alox can work with all types of cast bullets.

2. Should I not use a Lyman pot type melter to melt/purify lead wheel weights? I'm wondering if it's not too small and while 'you can do it', it really amounts to more hassle than it's worth doing that part in a different or larger pot/setup? you can use anything for melting ww; some people like to keep their casting pot clean from the garbage that invariably collects while melting ww so they have 2 diffrernt pots - one large capacity with a propane burner for speed and volume while melting scraps and ww; and one electric pot for more precise temperature control while casting bullets. I used my electric pot for everything when I started and it didn't hurt anything

3. I roughly know what speeds you can push non-gas checked lead bullets...but are you asking for leading problems if you shoot gas checked bullets without a gas check (at non gas checked bullet speeds)? I have pushed non-gc up to 1700 fps and gc bullets over 2300 fps without leading. There are many variables including your bore, the lead alloy, velocity, and even what powder you are using. in my experience shooting gc bullets without gc did not seem to make any difference but some people think it does cause leading.

4. Is it not worth casting for some rifle rounds? For example, for 8mm Mauser, the typical load data velocities are up there...maybe above where a gas checked lead bullet 'should' be shot...can things be remedied/fixed/adjusted? i.e. by adding tin to harden or water quenching, etc? If I'm using wheel weights and am aiming to drive lower end loads for paper punching/plinking, would that be within reason...or not advised. Another example is .223 or .22-250...where I've typically driven those round pretty fast. questionable whether it's worth casting for 223 or 22-250. You would have to download them substantially. but you could make some low velocity plinkers for fun shooting. Be aware casting small diameter bullets is more "challenging" than fatter bullets. Better to start with larger stuff and refine your technique before trying the little ones.

5. Not having been into casting before...I don't see gas checks for 8mm Mauser readily available. Any suggestions for sources? Related to question 3...the mold I can find for 8mm Mauser is made to take a gas check...if I shoot it without one am I just asking for frustration and leading issues? Accurate Molds for the molds, 8mm gas checks are available, contact Dragon Lube (site sponsor)
6. Re. hardness...is there a good reference for what hardness is recommended for certain cartridges/speeds/calibers/etc...? depends on velocity. BHN 20 has been good enough for everything I've shot up to 2300 fps in rifle loads. Pure ww is about 12-14 BHn and ok for velocity up to about 1400 fps but again there are many variables.

7. I've read of one gas check making tool...worth it, or one of those "I would have been better off just buying them" sort of thing? depends on the volume of cast bullets you will be shooting. If you shoot more than 2000-3000 checked bullets per year in a single calibre you might consider a gas check maker
I am planning on casting for 45/70, plinking 30/06, 8mm Mauser, .303, 500SW and maybe some other rifle calibers later on. If it was just one...say 45/70...I would just buy them and be done with it, but I'm feeling like the critical mass is there to do this. And for some rounds the 'affordable' lack of loaded ammo and components is pushing me to the make my own route. Cast bullets work as well as jacketed bullets in 303 and 45-70 and 500S&W. 8x57 and 30-06 work well with cast too, but you give up a bit of velocity in the last two. You can really save some money esp with the 45-70 and 500SW bullets

Thanks in advance for any help you can chime in with, much appreciated!
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Quick update...all the gear/kit is all in. I ran a very scaled down test of things because i couldn't resist trying it. I used the dipper/pourer and melted down a variety of .22lr, 9mm, 40cal, 357 and odd 45-70 bullets I had collected in the junk baggie from over time. Not many, just a small handful total. I gave each of the plated bullets a couple of good whacks with a hammer to crack the jackets. Since it was basically 2 dippers worth of lead I couldn't use the melting pot. I just used a propane torch and melted it straight in the dipper itself. I smoked and tried to preheat the mold. Mixed results...it was hard to keep things heated enough at first so lots of wrinkled casts and since it doesn't hold much and I didn't have much lead I had a bunch of incompletely filled casts. A couple came out near the end that i would say were maybe usable and I got the feel how it would got with more even heating of things and a larger supply of molten lead at hand.

It's quite fun. I can definitely see how small diameter/volume stuff would be more fiddly vs. larger bullets.

I bought a baggie of 8mm and 30cal gas checks from Dragon Lube. With them readily available like that I don't think I'll pursue the gas check maker just yet.

It took a massive amount of restraint not to melt down some of the odd batch of 45-70's that I have left over to cast a bunch of 8mm. Made up a batch of 8mm Mauser brass from some 30-06 cases.

Trying desperately to not get started into bullet/jacket swaging.....
 
I had the day off...idle hands and all that...

I melted down the junk bullets and some misc. stuff I wasn't going to shoot. Melted in the lyman electric pot since it was all pretty clean to start with. Heated up the mold and poured a dozen with the pourer/ladle/dipper that came with the kit. Dropped them into a container of water. All in all not the rolling around burned to the bone experience I had imagined...lol. The first batch had wrinkled tips and the bases weren't well defined. I dried those off and put them back into the pot. The breeze had picked up and I think it was cooling things down. I made sure the mold was hotter, cleaned out any slag in the dipper and the pot and tried again. The next batch came out much nicer...still a couple of rejects but about 40 keepers. When I stopped I poured the remainder of the pot into the lyman billet thingy and ended up with three loafs.

I measured some...the .324 mold was throwing them with this mix if stuff at .3235-.325...with the majority right in there at .324 (just like the box said, go figure). I lubed them lightly with liquid alox...let dry (mostly). I positioned the gas check and ran them through the lee push through sizer. Seemed ok..sized nicely enough. But the gas checks didn't seem to get pressed on all the way and many would just flick off. I ended up pressing each on with my little arbor press and the passing it through the sizer once more. I relubed and let stand to dry. The lube grooves seem to have a nice amount of alox in them.

Being again impatient, I waited until they were 'dry enough' and loaded up 10...with a couple of dummies to setup the seater. I did not have an expander/case mouth belling die for the 8mm mauser. I pressed ahead...haha...and seated but didn't crimp. I did have a lee universal crimp die that I got with a bunch of stuff sale a while ago so I crimped them with that.

OAL is much shorted than with some priv ammo I have (round nose vs really tapered pointed bullet)...but I seated to jam the rifling and then seated just a bit deeper than that. There's a full lube grove and crimp ring exposed...but the rounds fit the mag and seem to feed fine (using the dummies I setup the die with).

Loaded a starter load of H4198 as pre the lyman cast bullet book from the kit...crap there is a lot of empty space in the case...lol. We'll see how they shoot at the range tomorrow!

Biggest lessons learned from this so far...
1. Research...read lots, ask advice, watch vids, reasearch more
2. Kits are a great way to get a lot of the 'other stuff' you'll need
3. Lee and Lyman are great bang for buck...for me so far at least
4. Keep your mold hot enough...it's like magic...too cool and the mold just doesn't work, when it's hot enough it just seems to suck the lead in for a full fill

Thanks for all the help and advice guys! Still a long way to go but a good start so far!
 
Sounds like you're well on your way. Looking forward to a range report. A handy gadget you may want to add to your reloading tools, is the Lee Universal Expanding die. Can use it to bell most any case, from .22 to .45. Inexpensive, versatile and very easy to use. Worth looking into.
 
I shot the first test loads of 8mm Mauser through a Kar98K yesterday. From what I could tell, no chrony, the starter load was not generating enough pressure. Lots of soot on the case neck and down the side of the case body...sort of like firing surplus steel case ammo. The cases were also unusually hot after extracting. I was only shooting at 50yrds but the bullet holes were perfect. I'll shoot at a longer distance next time to see if these aren't tumbling.

I was using reformed 30-06 brass...next I'll make up some with the once fired priv cases as well and just neck size if they'll feed/chamber reliably.

I am going to reslug the bore to check groove diameter. The barrel was filthy...patches came out black. The bore is pretty rough but cleaned up pretty easily. There is definitly some leading left in the barrel, but more so from the rough bore than anything else I think at this point. Most of my cleaners are great for copper...I'll need to pick up something else suited to cutting powder and lead fouling.

I find it really neat that casting and working up loads for non-jacketed bullets is the same but really different at the same time as working up loads for jacketed bullets
 
I have a die stub I use for resizing necks for outside neck turning 308 brass. I'm going to make up a case mouth mandrel for it. If I get it right I should be able to do both 30-06 and 8mm Mauser cases
 
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