New to long range--have questions

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peterl

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Hi all, I have been reading about precision rifles and watching the sale side also. But I have some questions. I have read about people that say thier rifle will shot .50 or .75 inch groups at 100 yards, but I would like to know what these groups would be at 500 yards? I have been looking at rem 700 with a heavy barrel in 308. What kind of group would this rifle shoot (if I do my part)?
Now I have hunted for years but never have shot any thing any where near 500 yards. I don't hunt big game any more, but now I'm looking at gophers at 500 yards. I do reload so I don't mind working up hand loads.
 
If the rifle, load and shooters are consistent, you have described a rifle that should shoot 1/2 to 3/4 MOA. So at 500yds, it would have the potential to group 2.5 to 3.5".

It would certainly be accurate enough to hit gophers at that distance.

Factory rifle accuracy is really hard to pin down. Some shoot, others don't but it is a pretty safe bet that if the rifle, ammo is tuned properly and the shooter does the job, sub MOA is achievable.

Jerry
 
It is virtually impossible to predict how accurate any rifle will be. Odds favor the rifle to be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1 MOA, but it may be more and it may be less accurate.

Understand that no rifle can be taken to the limits of its accuracy potential without you - the shooter - having the skills to take it there. That takes time, it takes practice, it takes the right accessories, ammo, and the right conditions. There is a reason why experienced shooters always win accuracy matches.
 
If you want to shoot gophers you might consider an alternate caliber such as the 223 or perhaps the 6mmbr.

I think mysticplayer took his 223 out to some ridiculous range of 1700 yards (or there a bouts)...It certainly can do what you are asking!
 
Take that X MOA number multiply by X hundred will be your estimated group

at 400 yards = 1/2 * 4 --> a little over 2 inches.
 
mzcloud said:
Take that X MOA number multiply by X hundred will be your estimated group

at 400 yards = 1/2 * 4 --> a little over 2 inches.
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This is the theory. However, it rarely plays out that way in reality. This is what Jim Owens calls 'the big lie'. Some rifles that shoot well at 100m might not shoot well at 500, and vice versa. Only one way to be sure, and even then you'll never be 100% sure, because the farther you shoot, the more outside factors come into play that were negligible or absent at 100.

Of course, here on the internet we all shoot sub-moa to a mile, in gale force winds.
 
Like BC Guy says.

Short range groups are not a predictor of long range accuracy. I shoot preliminary groups at 500 yards to week out the load combinations that don't work, then test at 900 or 1000 yards.

I would say that 100 testing is a waste of time, unless youa re at least getting Chrony data.

The effect of rifle compensation (barrel and action harmonics) cannot be seen at short range, and this is the final determinant of what works and what does not. many a shooter has discovered that he gets better long range results with a load with poorer SD that another load.

If you are shooting 308 you have the advantage of lots of well known good component combinations. I suggest one of the 155 gr Palma bullets and a healthy dose of Varget or RL15, or N140.

My ammo used to get tested in a rail gun set up at 500 yards. This is as perfect a shooting platform as one can have. The two 10 shot groups I am looking at are 3.125" (0.625 min) with military (Berdan) cases and 2.0" (0.4 min) with Winchester cases.

That was production match ammo. Handloads tuned to that rifle would be a bit better.
 
X-fan said:
If you want to shoot gophers you might consider an alternate caliber such as the 223 or perhaps the 6mmbr.

I think mysticplayer took his 223 out to some ridiculous range of 1700 yards (or there a bouts)...It certainly can do what you are asking!
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Maybe on a paper target but what is the energy at that distance for a 22 caliber bullet.
 
Obtunded said:
...and some shoot better. VLD bullets don't generally go to sleep until about 300 M.

practice practice practice.
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X2

As an example my 6.5/284 with 140 Berger VLD's only groups a little under 1" at 100yards.

At 300yards, it still groups 1":eek:. I have found loads that do better at 100yards but do not hold up at longer distances. Proove your loads at the distance you plan to shoot, 100yards just does not cut it.

Dave
 
Dave42 said:
X2

As an example my 6.5/284 with 140 Berger VLD's only groups a little under 1" at 100yards.

At 300yards, it still groups 1":eek:. I have found loads that do better at 100yards but do not hold up at longer distances. Proove your loads at the distance you plan to shoot, 100yards just does not cut it.

Dave
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Not doubting you but I don't get the physics of what you said? If a bullet is "off course" from a direct hit wouldn't it continue and the magnitude increase? Would that mean you are going from 1 moa to 1/2 moa the further you go? This is of interest to me since I recently was doing some testing on a new to me rifle and was gonna toss some loads that were only so so at 100 yards.
 
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juanvaldez said:
Not doubting you but I don't get the physics of what you said? If a bullet is "off course" from a direct hit wouldn't it continue and the magnitude increase? Would that mean you are going from 1 moa to 1/2 moa the further you go? This is of interest to me since I recently was doing some testing on a new to me rifle and was gonna toss some loads that were only so so at 100 yards.
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Read Ganderites post above. For a group of shots with the same load, some rifles will spit a lower velocity round to hit a bit higher on target. This is not very noticeable at 100 y, but farther out the benefit comes into play.
Lee Enfield experts will attest to this feature in the design of the venerable No 4 Mk1...
 
Bullets do funny things at different distances. Due to the spin induced by rifling, they seem to travel in a slightly "corkscrew" pattern, and there appears to be a "butter zone" of sorts that has to do with velocity and rate of spin where there is a certain distance that they are most stable. Figuring out where that point is appears to be pretty much purely something that can be figured out by experimentation.
 
RobSmith said:
Due to the spin induced by rifling, they seem to travel in a slightly "corkscrew" pattern, and there appears to be a "butter zone" of sorts that has to do with velocity and rate of spin where there is a certain distance that they are most stable.
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From my understanding that is exactly what seems to be happening.
 
If you have a barrel that has a slight crookedness to the bore maybe that would cause a corkscrew effect sounds good to me,I have seen guns shoot about the same size groups out to about 300 yds or so they are usually the ones that shoot good at longer ranges I also seen guns groop tight at 100 and not so great at 400etc .
 
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