New (to me) No.4 -- What is this thing?!? PICS ADDED DIALUP BEWARE

[mwjones]

Just came into possession of this rifle, and was hoping someone might be able to tell me something about it. I've looked through the stickies, multiple tables of markings, etc, etc, and i can't make heads or tails of it! I will try to post a couple pics later (i think the wife has the camera in her purse ), but was hoping that the marking i can find/see might help.

The story that i got was that it was made in 44 and FTR'd for korea or something in the 50s but never made it there. It apparently came from an old guy that used it in milsurp competition for years. You can tell that the everything has been re parkerized, and it seems to shoot OK despite the couple of "D/P" stamps that i can find (reciever and front band)
Left side of reciever is stamped:

NO 4 MK 1*
LONGBRANCH
1944

There is a VERY tiny broad arrow and "D/P" stamp on the very rear of the reciever, to the right of the bolt. No other marks that i can see.

I want to call it the trigger guard band? It looks like it has been scrubbed, with the serial number re stamped on the left side. the number is 78L**** with two different size stamps used, the L being an upside down 7. The very faint marks that are there from the original number look like it is the same number re stamped. Trigger looks to be pinned to the reciever, not the wood.

Bolt is stamped on the rear of the handle with a much nicer looking serial number that matches the reciever. There is a "5" stamped on the right hand side fo the cocking piece. Bolt head is a number 3, with a crown and crossed swords stamp, with lettes that look like D D C.

Magazine housing has a "5" stamp just in fromth of the magazine. Magazine has no stamps other than a "B" in a circle on the follower.

Safety has a broad arrow stamp.

Rear band has what looks like an "B" stamped on the top
Front band had a "B" stamp on the left side, and a broad arrow and tiny "D/P" on the right.

No marking at all on butt plate, trigger guard, rear sight (unless a little "F" counts) Sight is a no 1 micrometer sight.

Another oddity is the rear handguard does not have the longbranch grooves in it, but is finished flat. The whole stock has been tru-oiled and is glossy, but doesn't look like it has been modified in any way, and the wood sits proud of the metal everywhere.

Anyway, that's all the markings i can find. Could it be that this rifle was built from parts? How much is such a gun worth? I don't want to sell it, but i'd like to try bedding/accurizing and don't want to bugger up a valuable rifle.

Thanks!

MJ

 

[rgg_7]

"D/P" is very bad news for an Enfield. Do not fire this it got designated "D/P" for a reason. Size 3 bolt head would incicated it's at the max headspacing. Is the wood ful length? Marked "LB" by any chance. It sounds like it's been put together "5" is most likely a "S" and the "F" is a Brtish part. Just my opinion,Ron

 

[TheTooner]

All of them are built from parts, but I know you mean assembled or rebuilt by someone other than the factory. If it had been FTR it would almost certainly be stamped as such, and if the stamping had been left off, I wouldn't quite believe the story from previous owners that it had been FTR if they couldn't explain exactly how they knew that apart from some previous owner saying so.

Like rgg7, I would be very wary of firing a rifle that has the barrel, receiver, or bolt marked DP. It means "drill purpose", i.e. the rifle has been relegated to non-firing training. There were plenty of worn out, damaged, or defective rifles to be selected for this purpose, so it is not likely that many good ones were.

Longbranch rifles sometimes include components shipped up from the Savage factory in the U.S. The Savage marking was an S that is often mistaken for a 5. That may be what's on the cocking piece.

Not all Longbranch production would have the grooved wooden rear handguard and if it did orginally and it got damaged, armourers wouldn't hesitate to replace it with a non-grooved one if that was all that happened to be available at the moment.

 

[sunray]

"...built from parts?..." Definitely. Before you do anything, check the headspace. If it's bad, you have trouble. A number 3 bolt head is as big as it gets.
"..."D/P" stamp..." Means it was built from a 'Drill Purpose' rifle. Rifles got DP'd for all kinds of reasons. Wasn't always because the rifle was unsafe.
The 'S' indicates Savage.
"...rear handguard does not..." Not all LB's had grooves, but that one is possibly from another rifle.
"...D D C..." DPC perhaps? Early LB proof mark.

 

[tiriaq]

Usually DP marks are large and prominent. No mistaking them.
IF the rifle was used for competition, it may well have been built up from miscellaneous parts. Might have been a rebuilt rifle sold off, then worked over.
Might be impossible to ever know the whole story.
Assuming the rifle was used for competiton, it obviously got shot. Perhaps got shot a lot.
By all means, check it over very carefully, or have it checked over by someone experienced with Lee Enfields.

 

[David K]

... A word of advice, "Buy the item, NOT the story" . .... David K

 

[mwjones]

Well, APPARENTLY it was used in competition. The guy i got it from shot it as well. I shot probably 50 rounds out of it the other day and it didn't kill me I'll have to try to take a picture of the stamps, because i'm not sure if it is a drill purpose stamp or not. there is a little capitol D, a slash, and a little capitol P. It is very tiny and not that noticeable (i couldn't see it until i looked in good light). Done with one punch, and about 2mm square is the size.

 

[tiriaq]

2mm square is not a Drill Purpose stamp.
I suspect the rifle is rebuilt/built up. Doesn't mean it isn't a good shooter.

 

[mwjones]

That's what i thought. All the DP stamps i have seen are huge stamps with giant D.P. painted on the stocks and such

The "DDC" as i thought it was does look like DPC now that you mention it...


Regarding DP stamps, i believe i read in a number of places that many enfields were marked DP when new arms were put into use. Like having a FAL as yourrifle, but using old No 4s to train the new guys?

 

[cyclone]

A number 3 bolt head is as big as it gets.

I thought the lower the number, the bigger it is? ...........

 

[tiriaq]

A #3 bolthead is the longest one likely to be seen. There are stories of #4s, but I've never seen one. IIRC, 0,1 &2 grow at .005" per step, #3 is .010" longer than #2. These did get stoned to fit sometimes, so make no assumptions.
The #3 is the last chance to get a rifle within spec, without some serious gunplumbing.
Could be though, that it was used simply to produce minimum headspace, even if it was OK with a #2.
DPC is actually DCP - Dominion of Canada Proof.

 

[mwjones]

Just took some pics, so here they are!

First, a couple full body shots of the old girl.

Action:

Cocking Piece (with savage stamp?)

Savage front sight blade?

Front band with LB stamp?

rear band with LB stamp?

Restamped serial number. Broad arrow marked safety?

Rear sight

rear of reciever with d/p stamp and broad arrow stamp?

bah...the pics of the stamps didn't turn out very well

 

[TheTooner]

Now I am sure the 5 is S for Savage.

 

[cantom]

I don't think that's DP. I think it's the DCP, Dominion of Canada Proof.

Nice wood, nice looking rifle overall! For a minute there I thought it might be LB laminated.

rear of reciever with d/p stamp and broad arrow stamp?

 

[mwjones]

It does look pretty nice in person, though there are a few little spots worn on the park that make it not perfect. It doesn't shoot half bad either. Brought it out with my no 1 mk III sporter the other day and shot some steel plates at random distances, so i don't really know if it is a good shooter. Going to slug it tomorrow. Might have to polish out my mould

 

[smellie]

Your "B" stamps are actually "LB" stamps; it's just that the two letters are over top of each other: Long Branch (Canadian).

Your funny "5" stamps (cocking-piece, etc.) are acutally squared-"S" stamps: Savage.

When the Armourers worked these critters over, they used whatever parts were handy. There was no effort, especially in the British Army, to keep Fazakerley parts on Faz rifles, Maltby on Maltby, LB on LB and so forth. If the part fit, they used it.

Rifle likely saw service in Britain; it has the safety they liked. They didn't like our model of safety!

In normal service, boltheads ran from 0 through 3. I have been called a liar more than once, but I have seen a 5 and I actually OWNED a 4, so they were actually built.

See if the rifle will accept a round with a MAX rim. This is .063". ALL Defence Industries ammo had Max rims, by the way, AFAIK. Sometimes a bolt-head would be changed if the ammo had thin rims. I HAVE seen ammo on the commercial market with rims .020" BELOW MINIMUM, so anything is possible.

If you want to shoot the old girl for a long time, get some Defence Industries brass (DI headstamp), handload to reasonable pressures and about 2250 ft/sec with a 180 and 4895 powder, use Ed's Famous O-Rings on first firing, use the Lee Collet Die and your brass will last forever and you will never strain the rifle..... and your ammo will fit PERFECTLY after the first firing, regardless of what the headspace gauge might say.

Lovely old toy.

Most important of all: have fun!
.