Newbie question: 223 reloading SR vs LR

jimbo14

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Newbie here, but learning rapidly. My situation: bought some parts for a project rifle 7-8 years ago, and finally put it together. 28” Shilen barrel, 1:7 (used; 1400 rnds), on a Savage action. It was a way to learn the ropes with a barrel that worked, and an approx proven load. Learning how to load rifle rounds, plus learning how to shoot a precision rifle at the same time. :)

This barrel has a deeeep throat, made for 90gn VLD. Jam length only leaves about 0.10-0.11” of bullet in the neck. Thankfully, it works with 0.11” jump, using some old 90gn JLK bullets I have.

Shooting shorter bullets like 69gn SMK, etc may not work since they are too short to tune. They need to be good long jumpers. :)

My range is short, at 100m max. Back when I bought this, I belonged to a 300 yd range.

So, trying to wrap my head around this because I’ve read conflicting info about heavyweights in 223, but is this a good summary and an ok approach to my situation:

- Shooting short range, say 100-200 or maybe 300yds, ideally you’d use a barrel with a shorter throat to tune 60-70gn bullets from jam to some amount of jump.

- Shooting longer range, say beyond 500+ yds, is where the deep throated barrel meant for the 80-90gn heavyweights at high velocities to help with wind, will shine.

- Ideally, reload at as high fps as will work well to help with wind, and in some cases, the higher speed is needed to stabilize bullets

So I’m using a deep throated barrel, lobbing 90gn JLK/VLD at 100m at a low velocity of about 2340 fps, which is a waste of their capability, but fine for learning. I’m not going to be shooting 500 yds anytime soon. I don’t care about the wasted potential or cash. I’m learning; installed my first barrel, learning about quality reloading and shooting, and that’s worth something.

Once I figure out what I want to do, then maybe I’ll build two rifles. One built for short range, and another for longer range.

Have I missed anything critical? I don’t want to get into all the nuances, just the broad strokes

Recent groups: all three targets are 5 rounds, with the identical load. Carefully weighed and measured. Difference from the group on the left and the two on the right is my grip. I moved my thumb to the right side of the grip. Apparently I don’t isolate my thumb.... :) Top right is 0.53”, bottom is 0.41”. These softballs are doing ok. Thanks!

B23-C3148-D4-F5-4741-9-F6-E-ACF45922475-A.jpg
 
Heavy .223 bullets really start to shine at longer ranges, I shoot 80 gr bullets out to 1000 yards. The 80 gr SMK bullets will shoot and react to the wind almost identical to a 155 gr .308 bullet. Same elevation come up between the 155/.308 bullet and the 80 gr/.223 bullet from 300 yards to 1000 yards. No problems jumping SMK bullets .020", .040" or more, they will shoot.

Your velocity seems very low but your barrel seems to shoot very well at this node. Have you tried bumping it up to a higher velocity to see of the groups get smaller? Maybe something in the 2800 fps range.
 
Heavy .223 bullets really start to shine at longer ranges, I shoot 80 gr bullets out to 1000 yards. The 80 gr SMK bullets will shoot and react to the wind almost identical to a 155 gr .308 bullet. Same elevation come up between the 155/.308 bullet and the 80 gr/.223 bullet from 300 yards to 1000 yards. No problems jumping SMK bullets .020", .040" or more, they will shoot.

Your velocity seems very low but your barrel seems to shoot very well at this node. Have you tried bumping it up to a higher velocity to see of the groups get smaller? Maybe something in the 2800 fps range.
Thanks for the feedback.

Do your 80's work well at 100 yds too? I read the odd post here and there that some shoot poorly at 100, and shoot better farther away. Just curious since the bulk of my practice will be at 100m.

I'm going to have to abandon this powder because I loaded up these then found out the powder is recalled (4007SSC). I'm developing a similar load for Varget, and it grouped almost as good. Two best were 0.55" and 0.41", before mirage started messing me up (5 group average of 0.65"). Varget is running at ~2540 fps for those groups, and I chronoed it up to 24.5gn at 2749 fps. I didn't see a velocity flat spot up high though. Considering I'm shooting at temps around freezing, I figured I'd keep the load low to see how it responds as it warms up into spring.
 
jimbo14, What is your COAL?

You are talking about speeds and a deep throat, but how deep?

I'm running 88 ELDs at 2.625" with 25.6 grains of Varget at around 2920 FPS at 20 degrees F with a 27 inch barrel.

If your COAL is around 2.5, then you will limit out around 2800 FPS

My last barrel was chambered for a COAL of 2.58 and it could hit 2900 FPS with fire formed cases that were just neck resized. Full Length resized would limit out around 2850 FPS.
 
jimbo14, What is your COAL?

You are talking about speeds and a deep throat, but how deep?

I'm running 88 ELDs at 2.625" with 25.6 grains of Varget at around 2920 FPS at 20 degrees F with a 27 inch barrel.

If your COAL is around 2.5, then you will limit out around 2800 FPS

My last barrel was chambered for a COAL of 2.58 and it could hit 2900 FPS with fire formed cases that were just neck resized. Full Length resized would limit out around 2850 FPS.
2.618", base to tip
That has a 0.11" jump, when comparing the difference between this and a dummy at jam length, with the Hornady base-to-ogive caliper adapter.

Thanks for the benchmarks. I've been reading the cautions about overpressure, etc and am learning the ropes by being careful, but I'll slowly bump up the loads and examine for pressure signs. Maybe post pics here for advice.

My massive experience with reloading rifle is about 200 rounds total, with two different barrels. Yes, I'm very new. :)
 
As long as you have a 1.5 degree throat, you should be able to get close to 2900 with minimal shoulder bump.

Is you rifle single shot or repeater?

What mags are you using?
 
My factory Savage LRPV 7 twist .223 , shooting the 85.5 Berger Hybrid long range target bullet over 24.6g of Varget , in Starline brass , is getting 2944fps at -2C with a COAL of 2.441 in a 26" barrel .
 
My factory Savage LRPV 7 twist .223 , shooting the 85.5 Berger Hybrid long range target bullet over 24.6g of Varget , in Starline brass , is getting 2944fps at -2C with a COAL of 2.441 in a 26" barrel .

That's cookin for a COAL of 2.441. I'd like to see a picture of your fired primers.

I can hit 3000 with 88s at 2.625 OAL, but prefer to stay a bit off the max pressure.
 
Surprisingly , at this velocity , there are ZERO pressure signs . No cratered primers , no ejector swipes , no sloppy primer pockets , no stiff bolt lift . Nothing . Starline is a reduced capacity case compared to Winchester for example , so , in theory , I might be able to go even faster . I can only shoot to 705 yards so where I'm at now does just fine . Chrono data is 2944.4fps ave , SD 6.7 , ES 16 at -2C . This data has proved to be dead on when on target at 705 yards . This factory barrel bore is as smooth as glass when running a patch through it . Typically shooting WELL under 1/2 MOA at 200M ( zero ) and holds it out o 705 . Shooting a 7" x 7" plate at 705 is a complete waste of ammo .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ce3KzxdhSk
 
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As long as you have a 1.5 degree throat, you should be able to get close to 2900 with minimal shoulder bump.

Is you rifle single shot or repeater?

What mags are you using?
It’s a Savage 11 in an MDT chassis, so mag fed, but the rounds are too long for the mag, so I single feed.

No idea what the angle of the throat is, and my fps may be higher because I’m never able to spend the time at the range to be certain the bullet is exactly parallel to the chrono that is 18’ away. Don’t want others to wait for me. I understand that if the bullet isn’t 100% parallel, then it’ll be travelling more than the expected distance across the IR sensors, calculating a slower fps.
 
Surprisingly , at this velocity , there are ZERO pressure signs . No cratered primers , no ejector swipes , no sloppy primer pockets , no stiff bolt lift . Nothing . Starline is a reduced capacity case compared to Winchester for example , so , in theory , I might be able to go even faster . I can only shoot to 705 yards so where I'm at now does just fine . Chrono data is 2944.4fps ave , SD 6.7 , ES 16 at -2C . This data has proved to be dead on when on target at 705 yards . This factory barrel bore is as smooth as glass when running a patch through it . Typically shooting WELL under 1/2 MOA at 200M ( zero ) and holds it out o 705 . Shooting a 7" x 7" plate at 705 is a complete waste of ammo .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ce3KzxdhSk
That’s sweeeeeet! I love it!

Thanks for the info, and good to know about the brass. What scope are you using?
 
I have two scopes that I flip around between three rifles . A 4-16 Nikon FX1000 Black FFP and a Bushnell Elite Tactical 6-24 FFP . Both work very well for what I use them for .
Thanks. I was curious what was working for you at 700 yds. A friend has a Nikon FX 1000 Black, and the glass is nice and clear. Haven’t looked through the Bushnell.

Side note: my low pressure rounds only grew the case lengths by 0.001” on average, and all cases used were 0.004-0.006” shorter than chamber length. I was hoping they’d grow more so my little brass pile would all be more uniform in length. Time to up the charge :)
 
Back in the days when I was super serious about tactical shooting and competed , scopes were fixed 10x . I had a Leupold Mark 4 M1 and a Bausch and Lomb 10x and the military used the Unertl 10X . All worked just fine . Scopes have come a LONG way since then . Nowadays , people seemed convinced that you MUST have a $3500+ Nightforce ( or whatever ) to do anything . In my case ( and probably everyone else's too ) , my scopes are not the limiting factor . Shooter skill is .
 
It’s a Savage 11 in an MDT chassis, so mag fed, but the rounds are too long for the mag, so I single feed.

No idea what the angle of the throat is, and my fps may be higher because I’m never able to spend the time at the range to be certain the bullet is exactly parallel to the chrono that is 18’ away. Don’t want others to wait for me. I understand that if the bullet isn’t 100% parallel, then it’ll be travelling more than the expected distance across the IR sensors, calculating a slower fps.

I thought so...

This is how you can feed them from a mag.

 
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