Newer carbines outperform M4 in dust test

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http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/army_carbine_dusttest_071217/

The M4 carbine, the weapon soldiers depend on in combat, finished last in a recent “extreme dust test” to demonstrate the M4’s reliability compared to three newer carbines.

Weapons officials at the Army Test and Evaluation Command at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., exposed Colt Defense LLC’s M4, along with the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA’s Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle and the H&K 416 to sandstorm conditions from late September to late November, firing 6,000 rounds through each test weapon.

When the test was completed, ATEC officials found that the M4 performed “significantly worse” than the other three weapons, sources told Army Times.

Officials tested 10 each of the four carbine models, firing a total of 60,000 rounds per model. Here’s how they ranked, according to the total number of times each model stopped firing:

• XM8: 127 stoppages.

• MK16 SCAR Light: 226 stoppages.

• 416: 233 stoppages.

• M4: 882 stoppages.

the results of the test were “a wake-up call,” but Army officials continue to stand by the current carbine, said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, commander of Program Executive Office Soldier, the command that is responsible for equipping soldiers.

“We take the results of this test with a great deal of interest and seriousness,” Brown said, expressing his determination to outfit soldiers with the best equipment possible.

The test results did not sway the Army’s faith in the M4, he said.

“Everybody in the Army has high confidence in this weapon,” Brown said.

Lighter and more compact than the M16 rifle, the M4 is more effective for the close confines of urban combat. The Army began fielding the M4 in the mid-1990s.

Army weapons officials agreed to perform the test at the request of Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., in July. Coburn took up the issue following a Feb. 26 Army Times report on moves by elite Army combat forces to ditch the M4 in favor of carbines they consider more reliable. Coburn is questioning the Army’s plans to spend $375 million to purchase M4s through fiscal 2009.

Coburn raised concerns over the M4’s “long-standing reliability” problems in an April 12 letter and asked if the Army had considered newer, possibly better weapons available on the commercial market.

John Hart, a spokesman for Coburn, who was traveling, said the senator was reviewing the test results and had yet to discuss it with the Army.

The M4, like its predecessor, the M16, uses a gas tube system, which relies on the gas created when a bullet is fired to cycle the weapon. Some weapons experts maintain the M4’s system of blowing gas directly into the firing mechanism of the weapon spews carbon residue that can lead to fouling and heat that dries up lubrication, causing excessive wear on parts.

The other contenders in the dust test — the XM8, SCAR and 416 — use a piston-style operating system, which relies on a gas-driven piston rod to cycle the weapon during firing. The gas is vented without funneling through the firing mechanism.

The Army’s Delta Force replaced its M4s with the H&K 416 in 2004 after tests revealed that the piston operating system significantly reduces malfunctions while increasing the life of parts. The elite unit collaborated with the German arms maker to develop the new carbine.

U.S. Special Operations Command has also revised its small-arms requirements. In November 2004, SOCom awarded a developmental contract to FN Herstal to develop its new SCAR to replace its weapons from the M16 family.

And from 2002 to 2005, the Army developed the XM8 as a replacement for the Army’s M16 family. The program led to infighting within the service’s weapons community and eventually died after failing to win approval at the Defense Department level.
How they were tested

The recent Aberdeen dust test used 10 sample models of each weapon. Before going into the dust chamber, testers applied a heavy coat of lubrication to each weapon. Each weapon’s muzzle was capped and ejection port cover closed.

Testers exposed the weapons to a heavy dust environment for 30 minutes before firing 120 rounds from each.

The weapons were then put back in the dust chamber for another 30 minutes and fired another 120 rounds. This sequence was repeated until each weapon had fired 600 rounds.

Testers then wiped down each weapon and applied another heavy application of lubrication.

The weapons were put back through the same sequence of 30 minutes in the dust chamber followed by firing 120 rounds from each weapon until another 600 rounds were fired.

Testers then thoroughly cleaned each weapon, re-lubricated each, and began the dusting and fire sequencing again.

This process was repeated until testers fired 6,000 rounds through each weapon.

The dust test exposed the weapons to the same extreme dust and sand conditions that Army weapons officials subjected the M4 and M16 to during a “systems assessment” at Aberdeen last year and again this summer. The results of the second round of ATEC tests showed that the performance of the M4s dramatically improved when testers increased the amount of lubrication used.

Out of the 60,000 rounds fired in the tests earlier in the summer, the 10 M4s tested had 307 stoppages, test results show, far fewer than the 882 in the most recent test.

in the recent tests, the M4 suffered 643 weapon-related stoppages, such as failure to eject or failure to extract fired casings, and 239 magazine-related stoppages.

Colt officials had not seen the test report and would not comment for this story, said James Battaglini, executive vice president for Colt Defense LLC, on Dec. 14.

Army officials are concerned about the gap between the two tests because the “test conditions for test two and three were ostensibly the same,” Brown said.

There were, however, minor differences in the two tests because they were conducted at different times of the year with different test officials, Brown said. Test community officials are analyzing the data to try to explain why the M4 performed worse during this test.

Weapons officials pointed out that these tests were conducted in extreme conditions that did not address “reliability in typical operational conditions,” the test report states.

Despite the last-place showing, Army officials say there is no movement toward replacing the M4.

The Army wants its next soldier weapon to be a true leap ahead, rather than a series of small improvements, Brown said.

“That is what the intent is,” he said, “to give our soldiers the very best and we are not going to rest until we do that.”

Col. Robert Radcliffe, head of the Directorate of Combat Developments for the Infantry Center at Fort Benning, Ga., said the test results will be considered as the Army continues to search for ways to improve soldier weapons.

For now, he said the Army will stick with the M4, because soldier surveys from Iraq and Afghanistan continue to highlight the weapon’s popularity among troops in the combat zone.

“The M4 is performing for them in combat, and it does what they needed to do in combat,” Radcliffe said.
 
I think the XM8 did so well because of the very simple shape of the bolt (its a flippin box :p)

I guess the more complex shapes (like the foreward assist groves) on the HK416 bolt cut it out less. I would have thought the 416 would be more "on par" with the XM8, but who knew!:)

I still dont think this will change much... It just gives the US army a better comparison...
 
The details is in the raw data - what is the distribution of the "stoppage"?

For example, are the stoppages evenly spreadout the entire test - or that all the stoppages bundled up in the last 1000 rounds of the 6000 rounds fired?

Are all the stoppages evenly spreadout among the 10 testing weapons?

Raw numbers like these mean nothing.
 
I agree with Greentips that knowing how the stoppages are distributed over the test would be helpful. But these numbers are still useful.

What I would like to know however, is how much time was required to clear the stoppages and continue shooting. If the M4 stoppages only took on average 1 second to clear but the XM8's were major jams that took 10 seconds, I would still want the M4 with more smaller jams.

So where do I buy an XM8? :)


Fudd
 
Well this should be no big surprise to anyone. This is going to shock some people:

1. The Colt Defense M4 is not the best combat rifle in the world.
2. The Colt Defense M4 is a great reliable rifle that serves those who use it well (as long as you have good mags).
3. Piston Driven combat rifles are better than DI guns in many ways. How much better is debatable, worth spending millions for an army to change maybe not, see statement #2.
4. Maybe the G36 / XM8 is not such a bad gun after all.
5. There is a reason that US SOCOM, KSK, GIGN, GSG9 and others are using or moving towards piston driven combat rifles. They perform better, how much is again debatable.
6. If the Colt Defense M4 is just as good, why would Delta / CAG (and others) move to the HK 416?

Lets not let this thread turn into a;
"This test means nothing" "The numbers are not right" "The data is raw" "I don't believe the results".

I leave you with this thought,

All of the above guns are sitting on a table and are brand new.
You don't have to worry about price or spare parts.
You get to pick one up, keep it, and take it home legally.
Who's going to pick the M4 as their first choice (""cause it's the best!!!"")?

Rich
 
This test reminds me of the FN-FAL vs the M-14 where the FAL failed ;)
I don't believe in Army test where any weapon is failed or passed based on deals and politics
 
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It would also be interesting if they had a baseline of each rifle going through the same firing tests without being subject to the sand storm environment, to see exactly what impact the sandstorm actually has and how many of those failures are caused by other factors.
 
The details is in the raw data - what is the distribution of the "stoppage"?

For example, are the stoppages evenly spreadout the entire test - or that all the stoppages bundled up in the last 1000 rounds of the 6000 rounds fired?

Are all the stoppages evenly spreadout among the 10 testing weapons?

Raw numbers like these mean nothing.

That's besides the point. The specific instance when each test gun malfunctioned is of little importance. For example, if you test two XM8s, both firearms will malfunction at different points. But as long as all the other variables are the same, you should find that they malfunction close to the same amount of times. What I mean is, you won't have an M4 malfunction 100 times and a different M4 malfunction 900 times. It's the operating principle that is being tested.


I think its more prudent to assume that the XM8 malfunctions ever 47 rounds vs. the M4's 7 rounds... Rather than make up excuses like "Oh it only malfunctions after a few thousand rounds".

They obviously have the details, but why would the publish specific stuff like that? :D
 
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The XM8/G36 would have been successful if they simply got rid of that ridiculous furniture and ISM sight replacing them instead with a bunch of utilitarian Picatinny rails. The gas system as shown works.
 
But as long as all the other variables are the same, you should find that they malfunction close to the same amount of times. What I mean is, you won't have an M4 malfunction 100 times and a different M4 malfunction 900 times. It's the operating principle that is being tested.
That's just it. We don't know how the malfunctions were spread across the 10 rifles. That is an important part of the tests. If it wasn't important they would only test one rifle of each model. Why test more? What if two of the ten M4 rifles made up 90% of the malfunctions? That is important to know. We likely could surmise that the two rifles had problems that the others didn't and that should be investigated further.


Officials tested 10 each of the four carbine models, firing a total of 60,000 rounds per model. Here’s how they ranked, according to the total number of times each model stopped firing:

• XM8: 127 stoppages.

• MK16 SCAR Light: 226 stoppages.

• 416: 233 stoppages.

• M4: 882 stoppages.

I think its more prudent to assume that the XM8 malfunctions ever 47 rounds vs. the M4's 7 rounds... Rather than make up excuses like "Oh it only malfunctions after a few thousand rounds".

Check the numbers again. You are out by 10x. Here are the numbers:

XM8: 472 rounds
MK16: 265 rounds
HK416: 257 rounds
M4: 68 rounds

Again, I would really like to know the total stoppage clearing times. That's very important if you are in a fire fight and have a jam. 1 second to clear and you might be alright. 10 seconds to clear and you might be dead! Important to know and they should have this data if they recorded any data at all.


Fudd
 
While the test results seem "interesting" they have little value to us civilians...

None of use live in a sandbox excluding southern Albertans.

None of us would bother to pay 11G for a G36, and then drag it by the sling through the sand while out on a short walk hunting coyotes.

None of us are going to pay for expensive parts for guns we don't see a lot of...whereas the AR15 is more common than the other three combined.

None of the above tests were done in -50 :D ( I live in the Yukon ;) )

As an additional point(more of a question really)...hasn't the M4 design been around since Vietnam? I seem to remember seeing pics showing specops troops carrying them as well as some other personnel.

Plus...would anyone here buttstroke someone to the head with a G36? and not fear it breaking up into a sh1tload of plastic bits? :D

Either way I agree with GT...I want more info regarding the exact data.
 
This test is anything but scientific. You can't just take one M4 and compare it to another system and assume that every M4 will operate exactly the same. That makes about as much sense as randomly selecting 1 Albertan and making him run an obstacle course against an Ontarian. Then declaring that because the Albertan won the race by 5 seconds and only tripped twice all Albertans are superior to Ontarians. Honestly guys..

What's also missing from the test is a comparison of how much the rifles weigh, how durable are they, how comforatble are they, etc. Remember, plastic rifles still haven't shed all their problems with cracking. Would you rather have a rifle that failed every 78 rounds or one that could break all together?
 
I'm a 416 fan, all the AR modularity and functionality, and it's piston-op. But that's me. And I'm not, oh, say... fighting the good fight in a windstorm of fine particulate dirt-dust.

It would help if we knew the service lives of these plaforms prior to testing. Were they all new out of the box, or were the M4's issue guns?

How much lubrication was used, and of what consistency/viscosity?
 
What's also missing from the test is a comparison of how much the rifles weigh, how durable are they, how comforatble are they, etc. Remember, plastic rifles still haven't shed all their problems with cracking. Would you rather have a rifle that failed every 78 rounds or one that could break all together?

Just because this article doesnt go into complete detail doesnt mean the study did not.
 
Was anyone ever in doubt that the SCAR and 416 were better than the M4? Both of them were designed to improve on the M4/M16. Hell, even the AR18 was "better" then the M16, I believe the US army even admitted it. The question shouldn't be "is it better", the question should be "is it good enough", which is a lot harder to answer.
 
Maybe they should convert the M4's to piston op and run the tests again? See if eliminating some stoppages puts other benefits of the M4 in a better light against what would then be 'other' functionally similar weapons?

I wish I had to worry about full auto stoppages... heck I'd settle for the chance to confirm full 30rd mag 'shot non-stop in semi-auto' stoppages. I'd even roll around in my kids sandbox.
 
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