No 1 Mk III vs No 4 enfield magazine
- Thread starter MattRidge
- Start date
Blastattack
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg MB
What do you mean by really sticky? The magazines were never meant to be removed from the rifle during use. They were only removed to facilitate cleaning and maintenance.
Winchester-1897
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Newmarket,Ontario
..............
A Number 4 Magazine has only a single long locking rib on the back. Most of them were made by deep-drawing the body, then finishing, so the Magazine Body likely will be a single piece.
A Number 1 (SMLE) Magazine has the locking rib on the back in 3 parts and has a tiny spring rivetted on to keep it in place. They were nearly all handmade, one at a time, and fitted carefully to an individual rifle, but they were not numbered. The bottom is held on with an extremely-thin layer of brass: a truly EXCELLENT job of brazing.
Swapping Magazines between rifles is pretty much hit-and-miss, especially for the Number 1 rifle. Swapping Magazines between Number 1 and Number 4 is asking for trouble.... although you can get away with it.... sometimes.
Very often, a tight Magazine is just one which has been fitted properly. As pointed out above, they were never meant to be removed from the rifle, apart from cleaning. Spare Magazines were NOT issued because it is MUCH FASTER to reload from Chargers, than it is to swap Mags.
Hope this helps.
A Number 1 (SMLE) Magazine has the locking rib on the back in 3 parts and has a tiny spring rivetted on to keep it in place. They were nearly all handmade, one at a time, and fitted carefully to an individual rifle, but they were not numbered. The bottom is held on with an extremely-thin layer of brass: a truly EXCELLENT job of brazing.
Swapping Magazines between rifles is pretty much hit-and-miss, especially for the Number 1 rifle. Swapping Magazines between Number 1 and Number 4 is asking for trouble.... although you can get away with it.... sometimes.
Very often, a tight Magazine is just one which has been fitted properly. As pointed out above, they were never meant to be removed from the rifle, apart from cleaning. Spare Magazines were NOT issued because it is MUCH FASTER to reload from Chargers, than it is to swap Mags.
Hope this helps.
The back rib is not a sure fire way to tell them apart as some No1 mags were modified to fit the No4 by removing the bottom part of the rib, the best way to tell a No4 mag is by the ribs on the side, on a No4 they stop short of the bottom of the case & on aNo1 mag they continue though the bottom.
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I am on this... I have just been sorting out some mags for projects.
There are several variations that you might encounter in the older rifles. They all can be tweaked to work, but some are more correct to have in a particular rifle. There is an amount of interchangeability between models mags and their components. It can get confusing. Different number designated springs, platforms, cases.
So I will confuse myself again with some nomenclature. I try to keep it simple so that I can understand wot I am trying to say.
These early mags have a model number to the styles, No.1 mag, No.2 mag, 3 & 4. They came along with the evolution of the rifle. Mainly concerning the changing ammo, and provision for charger loading the mag with charger clips.
No.1 case is as used in Long Lee Metfords and Enfields.
No.2 is used in the early Sht.LE.
No.3 case is a conversion to handle Mk.VII (pointy bullet) ammo and is converted from either a No.1 or 2 case. Often found on Charger Loading uprgrades.
No.4 case is new made and is as found in No.1 Mk.III rifle.
The one in your pic on the left has indeed had work done to its feed lips, but at the factory. It is one of the earlier mag cases No.2, reworked with the right stop clip and riveted on left feed lip. It was modified in this way to accept both Mk.VI (round nose) and Mk.VII (pointed) ammo. This conversion mag then becomes a No.3 mag.
No.3 mag would be correct for an early Sht.LE or Charger Loading Lee Enfield/Metford rifle conversion.
The one in your pic on the right is a No.4 mag (No.4 mag case, not same term as a mag for a No.4 rifle) and is correct for 1907 onwards (I think) SMLE rifle.
Look on the cases' spine for the number 3 or 4.
The rivet on the stop clip sticks out a wee bit and will bind in a rifle that does not have clearance made for it in the trigger guard and mag well. So I betcha the one marked '3' was the one you found to be 'sticky'? The rivet was jamin on something up inside.
You mention "I am not sure if it is a genuine No 1 Mk III magazine or a No 4 magazine which has been swapped."
Neither of your mags are designed to fit the No.4 (WWII) rifle, although the No.4 mag case can be made to work with tweaking.
All four versions of the mag had a narrower front face. That is why a No.1 rifle mag will fit in a No.4 rifle, but usually not the other way around. I say usually cos sometimes the darn things will just fit (different contractor variations).
Some No.4 case mags were modified to fit the No.4 rifle to augment supply in WWII. The spine was ground down to produce a single latch the same config as that of the standard No.4 rifle mags.
Not confused yet? Dig this.........No.3 mag takes a No.3 body, No.2 platform, No.1 spring and a No.3 auxilliary spring. No.4 mag takes No.4 body, No.3 platform, No.2 spring and a No.4 auxillary spring....help!
This was a looooong post just to say, you need to fit the one on the right that is marked with a 4 on the spine.
There are several variations that you might encounter in the older rifles. They all can be tweaked to work, but some are more correct to have in a particular rifle. There is an amount of interchangeability between models mags and their components. It can get confusing. Different number designated springs, platforms, cases.
So I will confuse myself again with some nomenclature. I try to keep it simple so that I can understand wot I am trying to say.
These early mags have a model number to the styles, No.1 mag, No.2 mag, 3 & 4. They came along with the evolution of the rifle. Mainly concerning the changing ammo, and provision for charger loading the mag with charger clips.
No.1 case is as used in Long Lee Metfords and Enfields.
No.2 is used in the early Sht.LE.
No.3 case is a conversion to handle Mk.VII (pointy bullet) ammo and is converted from either a No.1 or 2 case. Often found on Charger Loading uprgrades.
No.4 case is new made and is as found in No.1 Mk.III rifle.
The one in your pic on the left has indeed had work done to its feed lips, but at the factory. It is one of the earlier mag cases No.2, reworked with the right stop clip and riveted on left feed lip. It was modified in this way to accept both Mk.VI (round nose) and Mk.VII (pointed) ammo. This conversion mag then becomes a No.3 mag.
No.3 mag would be correct for an early Sht.LE or Charger Loading Lee Enfield/Metford rifle conversion.
The one in your pic on the right is a No.4 mag (No.4 mag case, not same term as a mag for a No.4 rifle) and is correct for 1907 onwards (I think) SMLE rifle.
Look on the cases' spine for the number 3 or 4.
The rivet on the stop clip sticks out a wee bit and will bind in a rifle that does not have clearance made for it in the trigger guard and mag well. So I betcha the one marked '3' was the one you found to be 'sticky'? The rivet was jamin on something up inside.
You mention "I am not sure if it is a genuine No 1 Mk III magazine or a No 4 magazine which has been swapped."
Neither of your mags are designed to fit the No.4 (WWII) rifle, although the No.4 mag case can be made to work with tweaking.
All four versions of the mag had a narrower front face. That is why a No.1 rifle mag will fit in a No.4 rifle, but usually not the other way around. I say usually cos sometimes the darn things will just fit (different contractor variations).
Some No.4 case mags were modified to fit the No.4 rifle to augment supply in WWII. The spine was ground down to produce a single latch the same config as that of the standard No.4 rifle mags.
Not confused yet? Dig this.........No.3 mag takes a No.3 body, No.2 platform, No.1 spring and a No.3 auxilliary spring. No.4 mag takes No.4 body, No.3 platform, No.2 spring and a No.4 auxillary spring....help!
This was a looooong post just to say, you need to fit the one on the right that is marked with a 4 on the spine.
Base on a Mk 3 is a separate piece. Square base. Look carefully and you'll see the brass line from brazing Close, the longlee mag was not case No1, case No1 was introduced with the Mk1 SMLE it had a link loop on the front just like the Longlee case, case 2 was introduced with the Mk1* SMLE in 1906 & did away with the link loop & was deeper at the front to help with charger loading, this case was continued with into MkIII production, with the introduction of the MkVII HV ammo a new case was introduced, which is the type 4 case, at the same time (or shortly before) the earlier type cases were modified to accept the new MkVII ammo & this case was called the type 3 case.
Longlee case.
Type 1 for the SMLE, no numbers on case, follower & auxillary spring, for MkVI ammo.
Type 2 for the SMLE 2 stamped on case & auxillary spring, no number on follower, for MkVI ammo.
Type 3 for the SMLE conversion of earlier cases, 3 stamped on case & auxillary spring 2 on the follower, for MkVI &MkVIII ammo.
Type 4 for the SMLE new manufacture for MkVII ammo but can be used with MkVI ammo, 4 stamped on case & auxillary spring 3 on the follower.
Here's a type 1 next to a type 3 that's been converted from a type 2, you can see the difference in the depth of the front of the case between the 2 different types of magazines.
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