No4 Mk1 T
- Thread starter bearhunter
- Start date
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
other users of No.4T rifles
http://enfields.freestarthost.com/ri10c.htm
There is little concensus or hard data on which countries, outside of UK and Canada used the No.4T.
There have been arrivals on the surplus market that suggest India had them, by the Ishapore screw in the stock; that New Zealand had some, by the big NZ broadarrow marks; that South Africa had them, by the U proofmarks; that Rhodesia had them, anecdotally; that Israel had them, again anecdotally; that the Dutch had them, by some No.8 scope cans made in Holland; and that the French used them, by No.32 scope repair parts made and marked in France. After that you are on your own!
http://enfields.freestarthost.com/ri10c.htm
There is little concensus or hard data on which countries, outside of UK and Canada used the No.4T.
There have been arrivals on the surplus market that suggest India had them, by the Ishapore screw in the stock; that New Zealand had some, by the big NZ broadarrow marks; that South Africa had them, by the U proofmarks; that Rhodesia had them, anecdotally; that Israel had them, again anecdotally; that the Dutch had them, by some No.8 scope cans made in Holland; and that the French used them, by No.32 scope repair parts made and marked in France. After that you are on your own!
I was talking to Joe Salter a while back and he had an Indian No4 Mk 1 T.
I believe it was made in India and there were only a few hundred made. If it is still on joesalter.com site you can get more details. Some of the items have excellent pictures and I don't think any of his items are Frankensteins. I forgot what is in the Skinnerton book on No 4 Sniper rifles but I think it mentions briefly about other countries. I stand to be corrected. I had a matching No4 Mk 1 T a few years ago and a gentleman from New Zealand phoned me up in the middle of the night, and we talked for an hour or more about the No4 sniper rifles. I thought someone was joking with me but this gentleman knew his No4's. The butt stock has to have up and down cut marks on it because they didn't want any shine on the stock. The numbers have to match in two places, the scope mounts and frame of rifle have to match. The scope and the number on the top of the butt stock, the number is located just below the cocking piece on the stock close to the socket.
I have run across lots of No4 Mk 1 T's and a great many of them are Bubba jobs. One guy at a gun show tried to convince me that his No 4 was the real untouched thing, and he wasn't impressed when I corrected him. He wouldn't think twice about shafting some people out of their money by selling a cobbled up gun.
Some guns have been played with in service because the British government and others had them and the armors changed things to suit the shooter and the lack of spare parts made them improvise. Just remember nothing is carved in stone. If you really want to learn about something invest in books and spend some time talking to owners. I have bought many books and they have paid for themselves time and time again.
I have been at it for thirty years and I don't profess to be an expert on anything but I have an idea of where to look and who to ask. I consider a self proclaimed expert to be all smoke and mirrors. I was talking to an antique seller a few years ago and he was telling me about a bayonet expert. I talked to the guy later on I asked what he was using for reference books he admitted he didn't have any. I found his first two books on bayonets at a gun show a few months later and got him on the road to his masters in BS.
I believe it was made in India and there were only a few hundred made. If it is still on joesalter.com site you can get more details. Some of the items have excellent pictures and I don't think any of his items are Frankensteins. I forgot what is in the Skinnerton book on No 4 Sniper rifles but I think it mentions briefly about other countries. I stand to be corrected. I had a matching No4 Mk 1 T a few years ago and a gentleman from New Zealand phoned me up in the middle of the night, and we talked for an hour or more about the No4 sniper rifles. I thought someone was joking with me but this gentleman knew his No4's. The butt stock has to have up and down cut marks on it because they didn't want any shine on the stock. The numbers have to match in two places, the scope mounts and frame of rifle have to match. The scope and the number on the top of the butt stock, the number is located just below the cocking piece on the stock close to the socket.
I have run across lots of No4 Mk 1 T's and a great many of them are Bubba jobs. One guy at a gun show tried to convince me that his No 4 was the real untouched thing, and he wasn't impressed when I corrected him. He wouldn't think twice about shafting some people out of their money by selling a cobbled up gun.
Some guns have been played with in service because the British government and others had them and the armors changed things to suit the shooter and the lack of spare parts made them improvise. Just remember nothing is carved in stone. If you really want to learn about something invest in books and spend some time talking to owners. I have bought many books and they have paid for themselves time and time again.
I have been at it for thirty years and I don't profess to be an expert on anything but I have an idea of where to look and who to ask. I consider a self proclaimed expert to be all smoke and mirrors. I was talking to an antique seller a few years ago and he was telling me about a bayonet expert. I talked to the guy later on I asked what he was using for reference books he admitted he didn't have any. I found his first two books on bayonets at a gun show a few months later and got him on the road to his masters in BS.
Thanks for the info guys. I agree about the books and I do have Skennertons and Strattons books as well as several others that are more diversified than enfields. Just not a lot of info out there on who used the No4 Mk1 T other than Canada and Great Britain. I was watching a Canada at War documentary a little while ago and noticed a couple of No4 Ts being displayed as lend lease to the Norwegian partisans. Just curious. Thanks again
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
bearhunter said:
Stratton's book is full of misinformation, especially regarding No4 snipers.
Skennerton's Lee Enfield Story & British Sniper are excellent as is
Laidler's Armourer's Perspective & Telescope sighting No32 are awesome from a technical standpoint, but contain a number of recently observed errors (specifically Savage No4MkI*Ts & REL No32 scopes).
Law's Without Warning is an excellent (the best?) source for info on Canadian sniping equipment
The No4Mk1/2T on Salter's site is quite clearly a British No4T which was at some point owned by the Indians. They may have converted it to Mk1/2 status, though it was definately NOT converted to a sniper there. This pic is the giveaway: http://photos.joesalter.com/2502-22.jpg
A friend of mine sent me pictures of his Dutch manufactured 1950s produced No32Mk3 scope. He wants my Dutch No8MkI scope tin for it. He has seen a Belgian tin & has heard rumours of Belgian made No32 scopes.
The Isrealis made a No32Mk3 variant scope with slightly different turrets. They seem to have been sold by Sarco in the early 90s.
A pair of #4T rifles were given to 2 Soviet sniper school instructors at the end of an allied infantry meeting in England during WWII. What happened to these 2 British rifles on the other side of the Eastern front is unrecorded.
So you can add Russia to the list.
So you can add Russia to the list.
Indian issued No 4Mk I(T)
I picked up a mismatched BSA (M47C) No 4 Mk I(T) a few years back when Century Arms was flogging them. This was around the same time that they had a whack of P14s and Indian built No 1 Mk III* grenade launching rifles (mid 1990's?). They came with the scope and scope transit can, but no rifle chest or other goodies. I feel pretty confident that this rifle was issued in India because not only does it have that lovely woodscrew in the fore stock, it has a very liberal application of that attractive black paint that you see on so many later Indian issued items. My parents ran a gunshop at that time, and we bought in 2 or 3 to see if they were any good. They sold quickly and we couldn't get any more. I don't believe Century had many, and as I recall they never made it into the catalog, just "Dealer Special" faxes. The one I grabbed also happened to have a Canadian REL scope on it. Somewhere, somebody probably has a Long Branch No 4 Mk I*(T) with a mismatched scope and black paint all over it. I don't know if it was the Indian army or some other idiots who mixed up the scopes, but any of these rifles I have seen are mismatched. I hope this helps.
I picked up a mismatched BSA (M47C) No 4 Mk I(T) a few years back when Century Arms was flogging them. This was around the same time that they had a whack of P14s and Indian built No 1 Mk III* grenade launching rifles (mid 1990's?). They came with the scope and scope transit can, but no rifle chest or other goodies. I feel pretty confident that this rifle was issued in India because not only does it have that lovely woodscrew in the fore stock, it has a very liberal application of that attractive black paint that you see on so many later Indian issued items. My parents ran a gunshop at that time, and we bought in 2 or 3 to see if they were any good. They sold quickly and we couldn't get any more. I don't believe Century had many, and as I recall they never made it into the catalog, just "Dealer Special" faxes. The one I grabbed also happened to have a Canadian REL scope on it. Somewhere, somebody probably has a Long Branch No 4 Mk I*(T) with a mismatched scope and black paint all over it. I don't know if it was the Indian army or some other idiots who mixed up the scopes, but any of these rifles I have seen are mismatched. I hope this helps.
I have a very close friend with an Ishapore #4 Mk 1 (T). Horrible rifle, the chamber is so rough that when you chamber a cartridge and then extract it, the gouges and scrapes along the length of the case covering all sides declares that the case is no longer to be considered for reloading. As for accuracy, my unscoped Fazakerly is more accurate than his (T).
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
1. India may have used No4Mk1T's but they NEVER made them as they didn't have the machinery.
2.I have three T's and none of them have cut marks on the stock.
3.There is Nothing about the numbers on the mounts having to match anything on the rifle.
By the way, century is turning out FAKE T's. Phillip head screws holding on the blocks,and the front block is on CROOKED not to mention that they didn't mill a flat on the reciever for it to fit flush.
2.I have three T's and none of them have cut marks on the stock.
3.There is Nothing about the numbers on the mounts having to match anything on the rifle.
By the way, century is turning out FAKE T's. Phillip head screws holding on the blocks,and the front block is on CROOKED not to mention that they didn't mill a flat on the reciever for it to fit flush.
