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boro

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Hi there,

If this post is just taking up space and somebody can point me to helpful threads, I'd appreciate it - with that caveat out of the way, let me introduce myself...

I'm obviously new to this forum. I'm a former biathlete, and I always took competetive shooting very seriously - I was definitely a better shot than I was a skier. An injury forced me to hang up the skis, and subsequently my participation in shooting went the same direction.

Recently, I've been considering returning to target shooting. I found it challenging and relaxing, and I would like to get involved at a local (Calgary) range again.

I'm also a military history major, and the idea of collecting/shooting rifles with significant history obviously appeals to me. I realize I'll need to get at least a non-restricted PAL and most likely some refresher training at a range to get me back into the swing of things.

What steps should I be following to get involved in the 'milsurp' sphere? It doesn't seem like something I can just 'jump into', but if some of you guys could offer advice as to retailers, ranges, and people to talk to, it would help me out alot.

Thanks,
boro
:canadaFlag:
 
Retailers - Lots of good ones out there. I think depending on where you live, the best rifles will come in the mail.

P & S Militaria - h ttp://psmilitaria.50megs.com/
Marstar (they sometimes have them) - h ttp://www.marstar.ca/index.shtm
Zefarm (overpriced sometimes) - h ttp://www.zefarm.net/home.php
Collector's Source (overpriced sometimes) - h ttp://www.collectorssource.com/
Valley Guns (depends what people list) - h ttp://www.valleyguns.com/

Perhaps the best place for milsurps in terms of price and selection is the Equipment Exchange on this very site!

I'm in London, so I can't say anything about any ranges.
 
Hi boro, welcome around.

I got involved in milsurp a bit by accident - met a WW2 veteran, had a long chat with him, realized that my "sporterized" rifle I used for deer hunting was a WW2 relic (Lee Enfield) and that our men used these rifles to ensure we'd enjoy freedom or a long while - so I started to look around for more sporterized Lee Enfields in order to bring a few back to their original, WW1 or WW2 looks.

Find a few Gun shows, discuss with people there. Hang around this forum, the amount of knowledge that resides in some members (excluding me) is simply amazing. Browse this milsurp section, lots of very interesting reading in there!

There's quite a bit of litterature too - often specific to rifle models; once you find your "niche", you'll have lots to explore.

Cheers!

Lou
 
boro said:
What steps should I be following to get involved in the 'milsurp' sphere? It doesn't seem like something I can just 'jump into', but if some of you guys could offer advice as to retailers, ranges, and people to talk to, it would help me out alot.
Click to expand...

Do lots of research on any item you are looking at buying... ;)

This milsurps forum on CGN is an excellent source of questions and answers, so bookmark it and also join the EE (Equipment Exchange) to find some member to member deals on milsurps. Where possible, try to FIRST support the milsurp dealers that support CGN financially, which helps keep CGN free for everyone to use.

As a Contributing Dealer, we also provide another FREE resource, that you might want to bookmark in your Internet browser.

We provide an on-line MKL (Milsurp Knowledge Library)http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7 which contains over 15,000 pictures covering about 150 different milsurp related entries, spread across 20 different countries. Although it is absolutely free, we do get contributing members who graciously help out financially with donations to help defray operating costs. There are now over 1,800 registered members using it, plus we see an average an additional 300 guests logging on every 24 hours, simply checking it out.

The content ranges from general non-copyrighted (or copyrighted with written release) manuals and historical documentation, to detailed high resolution photo montages of milsurp firearms and accessories. These photo pictorials are designed to show original and technically "all correct" specimens of milsurp collectibles from various countries. It is intended to give the average milsurp collector a place to go to compare various wood and metal markings through high resolution close-up digital pictures, in regards to a piece that they may be looking at buying, or validating the correctness of one they've perhaps already purchased. Here’s a typical MKL entry created by Advisory Panel member stencollector, for a Canadian 1944 C No.7 .22 Caliber Lee-Enfield Training Riflehttp://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=2192

The content is constantly vetted and maintained by a highly qualified Advisory Panel of current members, all of whom have become recognized as having an extensive and broad milsurp knowledge base of experience covering many diverse areas of our hobby. Besides assisting in maintaining the integrity of our on-line Milsurp Knowledge Libraries, these Advisory Panel members are also highly supportive of new collectors, constantly answering basic and even more complicated questions that might require additional research.

Over the last six months we’ve added several new features and enhancements such as the Quartermaster Storeshttp://www.milsurps.com/vbclassified.php, which offers members up to 5% savings from participating dealers, or perhaps browse our on-line Amazon Storehttp://www.milsurps.com/amazon_store.php. In addition, we've expanded "The Screening Room" with our own milsurps oriented YouTube Video Forumhttp://www.milsurps.com/yt.php, which allows members to view, search and browse YouTube's complete library without leaving the MILSURPS.COM site. For those wanting to be kept up to date on what's happening around the world while browsing posts, we offer real time Google News, as well as live simultaneous Radio and TV reception. Finally, we're all busy and perhaps don't have time to log-in every day to check for new posts. So, we've installed RSS (acronymic for Really Simple Syndication), which is a group of XML based web-content distribution and republication (Web syndication) formats, primarily used by sites such as Google, Yahoo and Bloglines. For those that don't use these commercial web site services, it's easy to download your own personal free RSS newsreaderhttp://www.tristana.org and have new posts from our forums and classified ads, delivered directly to your desktop. Check the RSS Newsfeed Pagehttp://www.milsurps.com/cv_rss_feeds.php for more information.

Hope this helps you get started with our exciting hobby. If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask. The more new blood that becomes involved, the better it is for the long term health of both the hobby and our sport.

Regards,
Badger
 
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boro said:
Hi there,

If this post is just taking up space and somebody can point me to helpful threads, I'd appreciate it - with that caveat out of the way, let me introduce myself...

I'm obviously new to this forum. I'm a former biathlete, and I always took competetive shooting very seriously - I was definitely a better shot than I was a skier. An injury forced me to hang up the skis, and subsequently my participation in shooting went the same direction.

Recently, I've been considering returning to target shooting. I found it challenging and relaxing, and I would like to get involved at a local (Calgary) range again.

I'm also a military history major, and the idea of collecting/shooting rifles with significant history obviously appeals to me. I realize I'll need to get at least a non-restricted PAL and most likely some refresher training at a range to get me back into the swing of things.

What steps should I be following to get involved in the 'milsurp' sphere? It doesn't seem like something I can just 'jump into', but if some of you guys could offer advice as to retailers, ranges, and people to talk to, it would help me out alot.

Thanks,
boro
:canadaFlag:
Click to expand...


That was step one - you're here. Welcome.
 
Start with a Russian Mosin-Nagant, Prices are reasonable and condition is better than average for Military Surplus. Plenty of History in these old girls!
 
Start with a Russian Mosin-Nagant, Prices are reasonable and condition is better than average for Military Surplus. Plenty of History in these old girls!
Click to expand...

If only there were some ammo out there! :(
 
Another consideration with shooting milsurps is availability (or lack thereof) of ammunition besides pricey newly manufactured ammo (basically a $1 a round). Not a whole lot of military surplus ammo around anymore. You may want to start researching handloading as well if you plan on shooting a lot. It is cleaner ammo and more accurate as well. Milsurp shooting and handloading kind of go hand in hand nowdays in Canada. Welcome and enjoy the hobby (again)!!

Oh, another good milsurp retailer is Ellwood Epps also....
 
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Cheap Military Ammo in Canada is a thing of the past with new importation rules we won't be seeing anymore of that. Even in the USA with easier importation laws supply is drying up.
 
How rare are we talking? I plan on purchasing a .22lr at first, just to get back into the motions, which will obviously cut down on ammunition spending.

I hadn't really considered the prospect of handloading at all.

My Grandfather served as a gunsmith with the 4th anti-tank... perhaps some genetic aptitude has been retained :D

Thanks again,
boro
:canadaFlag:
 
boro said:
How rare are we talking? I plan on purchasing a .22lr at first, just to get back into the motions, which will obviously cut down on ammunition spending.

My Grandfather served as a gunsmith with the 4th anti-tank... perhaps some genetic aptitude has been retained :D
Click to expand...

Don't get me started with Lamarckian evolution.

Hey here's a niche. Milsurps come in 22LR!!!

All of these are .22s (except the bottom one!)

Guns.jpg
 
Sorry Gents,

I disagree. If your a Canadian citizen, you owe it to your country to own a Lee Enfield No4 Mk1*, preferably a longbranch. You can still buy 303, albeit at $1 a round but save your brass.

P&S Militaria has some No4's on their site...

Other guns that you can get commerrcial ammo for include (other than squirrel guns (sorry Skirsons!) are:

K98 - lots of Russian captures out there for around $400.
M1 Garand - $600 to $700 but you'll evenually buy one anyhow and five years from now they may be $800 to $900.
SKS - Russian ones are "on their way" for $250 or less.

The least expensive route is the mosin and they are nice guns, (I have quite a few). Your choice of guns under $200 is wide.

If you do go the mosin route, you might find some post whoring guy named SKScanuck who has one foe sale in the EE form with a reloader with brass or bullets for $150. ;)

But that is just a rumour I heard...:D
 
For a .22, I might suggest that you call Anthony at Tradex in Montreal and ask if they're expecting any more Schutz and Larsen target rifles in the next few months. They had some for a bit over $200 about two to three months ago.

Since you've done precision target shooting in the past, I suggest that you look into the following milsurps:

A. Swedish Mausers: Though no longer going for the amazing prices that they sold for ten to fifteen years ago, for about $300 you might still be able to pick up a nice shooting specimen. The 6.5x55 round for which it is chambered is easy to find in soft point hunting ammo (including the reasonably priced Igman or PriviPartizan brands) while reloading components are readily available. You may want to read up more about these rifles, as well as watch the EE for them as people put them up for sale.

B. Swiss K31 Carbines: These are known for exceptional accuracy, though due to the Swiss recently signing on to some international convention prohibiting them from exporting any more of them, the prices will be sure to climb after the current supply of rifles gets sold (Currently Tradeex has some for $265 ea). Though you'd probably have to take up reloading for the 7.5x55cartridge, the bullet diameter is really 7.62mm or .308cal, so they'll take readily available .30 calibre bullets.

C. Finnish Mosin Nagants (esp the Model 39): Some of the Finnish copies/refurbs of captured Mosin Nagants are especially accurate, and it's still possible occasionally to get surplus ammo for reasonable prices, which will perhaps keep you happy until you begin reloading. Watch the EE and perhaps ask a few people on this board who are more into them as to where you could find them.

As for SKS carbines (circa $200 for Chinese and incoming Russian specimens at SIR), it is still possible to get cases of 7.62x39 surplus ammo for about $225 shipped (over 1100rds). Some of the Russian, older Chinese and Yugos are also of historic interest and collectable rifles. While most come nowhere near the accuracy of the better bolt guns, they can provide good practice in various shooting positions out to 200m. Alternately, you could get some Mosin Nagant rifles and carbines for a bit less, though the 7.62x54R ammo that they are chambered for are a bit harder to come across and will cost more (i.e. maybe $225 for a case of 800 rds if available).

I like and own several Lee Enfields, but the days of inexpensive, unaltered specimens is increasingly a thing of the past, unless you luck upon someone disposing of theirs who's not too much on top of the current trends in pricing. Similar to many other milsurps, soft point hunting ammo is readily available, but unless you reload will be very costly to shoot in any significant quantity.

The Russian Capture Mausers are good rifles at reasonable, though not cheap prices. Since the bore condition on these rifles varies widely, you might want to buy them from a dealer or individual who you can trust, or better yet examine them yourself. The ammo situation is similar to the Enfields, and the sights are a bit harder on the eyes.

I reload and have begun to cast my own bullets, which to me is the only reasonably economical way to shoot my Enfields, Mausers and Austrian Mannlichers, though if you could find Mausers and Enfields chambered to 7.62 NATO, it might be economical to reload them with jacketed .30cal bullets. While a good .22 will give you lots of quality time on the range, you might find it worthwhile to invest in some centrefire rifles in order to practice at ranges from 1-300meters, or compete in matches tailored to milsurp rifles.

There are several good sites on the internet in addition to the already mentioned milsurps.com, such as gunboards.com, surplusrifle.com (and the affiliated forums) and "Parallax Bill's Curio and Relic" Forums. While nowhere near as detailed as milsurps.com when it comes to items of interest to collectors, surplusrifle.com has good summaries and articles of just about every surplus rifle or pistol that's been available in any quantity over the past several years. If you have the time, it's really fun to read up on the myriad of rifles out there, if not quite as fun as owning several of them, lol.

Best of Luck,

Frank
 
And to add to my last, it's still possible to sometimes come across milsurps at nice prices.

I purchases an M93 Turkish Mauser with a nice bore over the Christmas holidays for $140 shipped to my door. Earlier in December I purchased a M38 Russian Carbine for $200 shipped, and a few months before that came across a cut down #4 Enfield that I could have bought for around $100 and restored for around a total of $200 (I might just call that fellow up again once the details of a new job are finalized). Last summer, I also purchased an M96/11 Swiss rifle in great shape for $225. I've had even better deals over the past couple of years for a variety of rifles and carbines, though it might be harder to match them today. If you do your homework and keep persistant, there's a rifle for you out there somewhere....
 
You could marry/date an ex-military/reservist... That's how I got into shooting in general, and he used to shoot stuff in Europe (he's British but dad was Metis, so he's Canadian) like Belgian FNs.

We have 2 Nagants (real heavy and boomy), an M14, AR15, SMLE (full wood), an SKS, and a CZ 858. I oddly enough like the M14 now (open sights), and love the Nagant sniper (the other is a carbine). I am better on the open sights with the AR than with our new scope, hmm...

The SKS is just a bullet-sprayer, nothing special, it was just a cheep buy that he picked up (Chinese, and don't know if getting a Russian or any other version would make a diff but that's probably on another thread!). The SMLE shoots relatively tight and accurate at 100 yds open sight.

If you can get your hands on a SMLE but in .22 with full wood, you'll still be able to get used to the weight without the cost of .303s.
 
Here are a few more things to consider:

1) It's an addiction. Milsurps are so diverse and plentiful that it's very easy to get in deep quickly. You have been warned.

2) Dollar for Dollar Mosin nagants are the cheapest you can find on the market. Especially the new Import Marked russian m91/30's, can probably get one for $130 on the EE if you negotiate. For a more expensive to shoot rifle, K31's are known to be incredibly accurate and I believe some of the most undervalued rifles on the market. I may have to get one soon...

3) Milsurp ammo comes and goes with complete irregularity. If you're looking for cheap to feed, about the cheapest rifle caliber you'll find is Canada Ammo's 7.62x39 at $200 shipped anwhere for 1120 rds. Rumour I've heard from reputable sources repeatedly quotes more milsurp calibers showing up mid this year, so give or take a year, there may be some more.

4) Ask questions here, use the search function, PM those who seem to be in the know with follow up questions, then post pics of what you buy. The pictures are necessary.
 
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