Nothing to see.

CanAm said:
have you made the same comparison with the 550? It would be interested to see.
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No, but I'll look around and see if I can find similar details of the 550 --- I assume they are more common and will be easier to track down. If anyone else has some they'd like to post, please feel free to add to this thread.
 
I'm seeing some pretty glaring differences between these pictures (SG540) and our SAN rifles........Similar pictures of a SG550 on the other hand, look close to identical to our guns. It will be interesting to see what comes of all of this. It's difficult to see these pictures helping our case.
 
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Great photos. Interesting to see some detailed info on the 540

Off topic: I watched the noir hill-billy movie Winter's Bone last week and successfully identified the Sig 540 based on the front sight and 2" of the hand-guard. I was pretty pleased with myself. My girlfriend said "its not fun watching movies with guns when you're around."
 
A variant is horizontal - There is a "master", and different versions are made out of it, which are the "variants".

Remember the Steyr TMP? The OIC prohibs the semi automatic version of TMP, which is the SPP. TMP is the "master", SPP is a version of TMP. TMP came before everyone else.

The B&T MP9 is a direct descendant of TMP. From MP9, a new version of the "master' MP9 is made. You can agrue that both TP9 and MP9 are variants of TMP, but they are not variants of SPP (banned).

The argument here is whether the SIG 540 is the "master", or that the SIG 550 is the "master". SIG 550 is a descendant of the SIG540. Is PE90 a descendant of the semi automatic version of SIG540, or a variant derived from SIG550?

This is a question that needs to be answered by Swiss Arms and I think it is exactly what RCMP is looking for in the official answer. Mechanical similarities are irrelevant. It is how the design linkage that matters. Our speculation is useless. It is an answer that needs to be answered by the manufacturer who make and design these things over the last 40 years. They have to look up at their documentation and have to come up with a straight answer. They had given the answer 12 years ago, so we will see what they have to say when asked the same question again 12 years after.

Personally, I think our focus should be put on something we can influence, which is to influence our politicians to remove the roots of the problems, that are, the ambiguity in the OICs and the OICs themselves. Our speculation on the "true" answer of this "variant game" will just end up harming our own cause and diverting valuable engery from things that we can influence.
 
greentips said:
personally, i think our focus should be put on something we can influence, which is to influence our politicians to remove the roots of the problems, that are, the ambiguity in the oics and the oics themselves. Our speculation on the "true" answer of this "variant game" will just end up harming our own cause and diverting valuable engery from things that we can influence.
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yes
 
greentips said:
The argument here is whether the SIG 540 is the "master", or that the SIG 550 is the "master". SIG 550 is a descendant of the SIG540. Is PE90 a descendant of the semi automatic version of SIG540, or a variant derived from SIG550?
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This is what the RCMP currently thinks of that question (from William Etter's letter sent to TSE):

8. It should be noted that semi-automatic, civilian “Military Target Shooting versions” of the SG550/Stgw 90 rifles exist, known as the PE, PE90, PE ESF, 550SP, SG550-1 PE90 Oliv-Grun, SG550-1 PE90 Black Special, SG550-1 PE90 Blue, SG550-1 PE90 Sand, PE90 Black Special, PE90 Blue Star, PE90 Heavy Metal, PE90 Red Devil, PE90 Classic Green, depending on configuration. These civilian, semi-automatic, Military Target Shooting variants of the SG550 can be found in Swiss Arms advertising.
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I agree 100% that the question of Classic Green lineage can only be answered by the manufacturer. I hope that, 12 years ago, they were asked the question, "Is the Classic Green a variant of the 550" and not, "Is the Classic Green a variant of the 540." Think about the difference, and how easy it could be to misunderstand the implications of both the question and the answer.

greentips said:
Personally, I think our focus should be put on something we can influence, which is to influence our politicians to remove the roots of the problems, that are, the ambiguity in the OICs and the OICs themselves. Our speculation on the "true" answer of this "variant game" will just end up harming our own cause and diverting valuable engery from things that we can influence.
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Again, I agree 100% that there has to be a fundamental change in the way Canadian firearms laws are defined and enforced, or we'll be forever fighting these retroactive decisions. That being said, I can guarantee* you that changes to the Firearms Act are going to take a lot longer for the government to implement than it will for the RCMP to prohibit and destroy the Classic Greens --- in that respect, it's understandable that effort should be put into the immediate need to preserve our ability to own these rifles.

* or can repealing an OIC or defining a new one that supersedes an old (e.g., declassify the 550 as prohibited) be done in a timely fashion?
 
CanAm said:
They use the 540/3 in the hallway scene in "Leon: The Professional" Great scene.
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Excellent scene. One of my favorites. There is a SG551 in there too.

800px-Leon149.jpg


greentips said:
A variant is horizontal - There is a "master", and different versions are made out of it, which are the "variants".

The argument here is whether the SIG 540 is the "master", or that the SIG 550 is the "master". SIG 550 is a descendant of the SIG540. Is PE90 a descendant of the semi automatic version of SIG540, or a variant derived from SIG550?

This is a question that needs to be answered by Swiss Arms and I think it is exactly what RCMP is looking for in the official answer. Mechanical similarities are irrelevant. It is how the design linkage that matters. Our speculation is useless. It is an answer that needs to be answered by the manufacturer who make and design these things over the last 40 years. They have to look up at their documentation and have to come up with a straight answer. They had given the answer 12 years ago, so we will see what they have to say when asked the same question again 12 years after.
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This about sums it up, excellent post.
 
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CanAm said:
Continuing on the movie note there was a 542 used in one of the recent Bond films, fired from a boat.
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you are correct:

During the boat chase in Haiti, one of General Medrano's men uses a SIG SG 542 assault rifle. When Bond smashes into their boat with his own, the gunner is seen either clearing a jam or attempting to reload the rifle and is unable to get it operational again before Bond makes a second pass and destroys the boat's outboard engine. A Bolivian soldier guarding the Perla Duna hotel garage is briefly seen with an SIG SG 542 slung over his shoulder. IMFDB

QSSIG.jpg
 
Swiss Arms SG 540 pictures

And to add to my last. All the CA discussion on Cz858 and Swiss arms- If the firearm has never been a full automatic firearm, how could it be converted? To be a converted, it needs to be something else before the conversion.

All the speculation and picture showing do nothing to further our cause. It satisfies curiosity but it is also giving ammo to other people with opposite agenda who is also reading these public forums.

The wording of the Oic and the concentrated power to interpret the Oic are the culprits. Instead of scouting for pictures and manuals on the Internet for the RCMP that is reading public forums ( guess how they do research? Everyone does it on the Internet and google! ), we should spend the time on attacking the OIC and the execution authority related to the OIC.
 
greentips said:
All the speculation and picture showing do nothing to further our cause. It satisfies curiosity but it is also giving ammo to other people with opposite agenda who is also reading these public forums.
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I didn't go into so much detail but figured this out on the first page

Steve Janes said:
It's difficult to see these pictures helping our case.
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greentips said:
All the speculation and picture showing do nothing to further our cause. It satisfies curiosity but it is also giving ammo to other people with opposite agenda who is also reading these public forums.

The wording of the Oic and the concentrated power to interpret the Oic are the culprits. Instead of scouting for pictures and manuals on the Internet for the RCMP that is reading public forums ( guess how they do research? Everyone does it on the Internet and google! ), we should spend the time on attacking the OIC and the execution authority related to the OIC.
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Thanks for that interlude of sanity and I hope energy and resources are being put into these concerns presently.
 
greentips said:
The wording of the Oic and the concentrated power to interpret the Oic are the culprits. Instead of scouting for pictures and manuals on the Internet for the RCMP that is reading public forums ( guess how they do research? Everyone does it on the Internet and google! ), we should spend the time on attacking the OIC and the execution authority related to the OIC.
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Agreed.

My biggest issue (well, one of them) with the OIC's are the lack of a clear definition for the word "variant", and the resulting liberal interpretation of the word in relation to OIC prohibited firearms. It is being used to prohibit anything remotely resembling a named prohibited firearm. A much more reasonable interpretation would be it prevents simply changing the name of the firearm to get around the prohibition. In cases where the firearms are not mechanically identical, they are not "variants". As it is very easy for OIC's to be passed, this more conservative interpretation should be favored.

There should also be a method of challenging the validity of an OIC, and require a clear justification for the prohibition.

That said, I think the entire OIC system should be scrapped. With the strict requirements set out by R v. Hasselwander, and the magazine capacity regulations, I do not think a reasonable case can be made that public safety is enhanced by prohibition of a semi-automatic firearm that is not readily and easily convertible to fully automatic, and that has a cartridge magazine that is not capable of holding more than five cartridges.
 
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