So lately I noticed NOW is the time to buy an old "Bridgeport style" manual knee mill or 1980's-1990's vertical milling center. So what should you watch out for or be aware of, the bare "jist" of it. Take it from someone that has picked up over 5 of these things from the USA an lugged them up to Canada for his neighbors an is currently on getting his own for his own shop.
So before you rush out here is the short & sweet of it.
PRICES
The reason is primarily two fold.
1. Modern vertical & horizontal milling centers are multimultimulti axis. Some do 7, 11, 14, 18, or even 21 or whatever. Basically they can cut from every damn angle you can think of an within those 1/1000th of a inch tolerance on HEAVY hard materials. So all the old "3" axis centers are too slow.
First gen VMC's made way for the super speed VMC's, an then came the multi-axis, then the multi-multi axis. An so it goes. Nothing wrong with these machines, they just aren't "competitive" anymore.
Machining is TIME + Cost. Every time a human meat bag has to touch the material/work stock, that costs time. So a machine that can for example cut an AR-15 bolt in a single operation is going to be way more profitable than making the same bolt with an old horizontal that need 3-5 operations.
An those old knee mills..............just taking up precious FLOOR SPACE in their buildings where a more efficient & profitable milling center or whatever can go. Nothing wrong with these old machines, but while old knee mills can do ANYTHING but.........they take time to do it. Now you can put a mini-cnc center made in Taiwan in there to make the tools, an old manual mill just can't do it fast enough. Faster faster faster, always faster. I can't wait a half a day for that tool, I NEED IT NOW or yesterday!!!
2. Pennies per pound, it will cost you more in gas money to go get it or shipping than to buy it. For example on Bidspotter old belt pulley manual bridgeports rarely break $1000. So with that 20-30% bidder fee BS that's $1400-1700 USD, So basically $2K flat rate. But if you are patient you can get a "Gear head" with Digital read out an all the trimmings & tools for $2-3K which is a steal............an a knee mill can be taken apart an fit nicely in the back of a good sized pickup truck. Most mills weigh in at 2000-4500 lbs. We used just a simple gantry crane at princess auto to take it apart an put it back together (while cleaning & inspecting it).
WHERE TO BUY
Avoid - general auctions since it's usually junk they are getting rid of, unless you know what you are looking at the rule of thumb it's worn out scrap. However sometimes they send that one odd "obsolete" piece to the auction but if you are clueless on what to look for, just forget about it. There is no power at an auction to turn on the machine, give it a shake an check the ways. You need measuring tools and know-how for that.
So avoid mills at auctions, they usually are totally worn out junk only good for spare parts. I'm currently bidding on an Acra in Saskatoon but only because my neighbor has the same model an wants spare parts. You might get lucky an find a decent one you can fix up, but never spend more than $1K. Something many fail to understand based on the prices I see these things going for at Richie Bro auctions. Yikes wtf they thinkin'
Avoid - Craigslist & Kijiji for the most part or take this one story in mind. A lot of mills you see on craigslist or kijiji came from people buying from these auctions an reselling them there. Of course they usually do this with the totally junk ones they get, so watch out. One guy bought a used mill at an Ontario auction an realized it was broke an since it was a totally one off Asian knock-off, so he was selling it for the same price he paid for it on kijiji. A lot of mills have no way to repair them unless you are an engineer capable of building a space shuttle in your back yard.
GoTo: Company Bankruptcies or liquidating old stock to make room for new:
To these companies getting rid of this stuff, it's just a tax write off.
WHAT TO GET
Manual Knee vs. Old Milling Center.
Manual knees especially in R8 collet are never to cost more than $2K because driving down to get one an come back always costs me $500 in fuel alone. I like doing this because it's just an excuse to go on a road trip an see the cuties in California (where most of the mills I buy are from). So when I go to get one, I always ask for $3K an I can always find that one "good one" at an auction somewhere within 3000 miles. I joke an say I charge $1/km. To get something of equal quality up here, I never see them go for less than $4K an that's bare bones, no DRO's, no lube, no powerbar.
Also most light duty knee mills do still require 3 phase power BUT you can get those 3 phase converters quite easily for a decent price or even follow those "how to" youtube video instructions. If you can't figure out the electrical stuff like how to wire up this stuff then give up hope on operating a mill. Might as well stop reading now. LOL it's not too hard, just take your time an stop playing video games or watching internet #### an educate yourself.
Everyone hypes on about "40 taper" tooling but it's SUPER EXPENSIVE. But R8 is all you need for a hobby mill and R8 can do what 40 taper can do....you just have to go slower an make lighter cuts. Even a dinky lil mill like a Precision Matthews PM-25MV that's quite popular can build a "glock slide" if I use a diamond tipped cutter an I go at it for a entire day non-stop getting carpal tunnel in my neck. Unless you plan on buying a Milling Center in the future that uses that type of tooling, just go with R8 on a manual mill, it'll do just fine an the tools can be had for cheap. Plenty of R8 tooling available pennies per pound at auctions since companies have machines that don't use it anymore, get it while you can.
O an before you say "O I see 40 taper ____ on ebay an it looks decently prices". Yeah more like worn out junk being hawked on gullible idiots. Just because it looks "shiny" doesn't mean it's good. Or it's someone selling bits & bobbles he bought at an auction that were just tossed in a hodge podge box sold by the pound. You never know for sure thou unless you are there holding a micronmeter gauge to it.
Ok so the milling centers.....................massive bulky machines that are lugging a big heavy awkward mattress. They barely fit on a flat deck trailer an they can not be "taken down" into smaller bite sized chunks. If you are hell bent set on one, get the ones from the 1990's as they got the size of them down to a more manageable level. However the weight of them is usually double that of a manual knee mill. Some of those clunkers from the 1980's were colossus in weight an even worse in dimensions. Forget about them. Let the "yokel locals" have them. So most of my advice of getting a mill is based entirely on getting an old manual Knee mill because of ease of picking one up yourself, cost of getting one, an the enjoyment of doing so (road trip, I call shotgun). Unless that milling center is in the same province, forget about it. People have died moving those F'ing things. Never buy one at a regular auction, those should be considered scrap iron. Only companies buying them for parts or for refurbish are after those. Beware of idiots who "crashed" the machine one too may times. These are write offs. Look at youtube videos of crashed CNC to see what i mean. another reason to avoid buying these mills at regular auctions or "used" off kijiji/craigslist.
Milling centers all use typically a "40 taper" style of tooling. The lil fellahs used the smaller 30 taper while the massive machines used 50 taper. Typically you should go with 40 taper because anything that used 30 taper was considered a "specialty" niche machine that will be impossible to upgrade or repair, an why would you need anything in 50 taper let alone be able to move the damn thing. Many people will literally GIVE you the machine for free if you can haul the damn thing out of there. Anything that used "proprietary" tooling not any of three mentioned were selling their tools, not the machines. Kinda like printers which sell the printer at a loss so you are buying they're ink cartridges at a massive mark up. Still many milling centers from top brands were built to last an are upgrade-able if those outdated electronics/computers are too clunky to use or die on yeah.
Finally are those "CNC knee mills". O dear god avoid these, it's "LIPSTICK ON A PIG". While some old mills easily take the upgrade because they were already "CNC" ish like those Deckels, most were never designed to handle that movement. When they designed the "Bridgeport" style, that was with a human turning those handles, they were only upgraded with "harder way's to handle power feeds later on. The moment you add CNC to that setup, it's like adding 40 years of use in less than 10. Sure you increase production, but you wear them out MUCH MUCH faster. Old CNC knee mills are a laughing stock but people keep buying them. Businesses who buy them are usually those making parts that don't require high accuracy. It's volume not quality. They are essentially a poor mans CNC. They stopped making these things in the 1990's.
NOW there are SOME that are built super tough because the companies knew the design had to be altered to handle the extra wear & tear. If you look at them you can clearly see how they look like a regular knee mill but they made "changes" while all the others are just knee mills with CNC kits slapped on them. .........an I would recommend buying one if you can find one. So super quick
Bridgeport - Boss series 1to7. This is the one you are most likely to find for a decent price an is easy to work with an upgrade.
Deckel (Germany) FP-1 to FP-4. Also decent to find.........but really really expensive. Every machinist wants a deckel.
Kent USA
Hurco - Great, but hard to work with for upgrades or repairs that aren't wallet busting.
Acra (Taiwan)
Only a few companies like Kent & Acra still make these kinds of mills because there is still demand for this "niche". Acra doesn't really make parts......except for this as it's their bread & butter. An yes, they can be "taken down" for easier handling/shipping but they are more difficult to deal with, an much much more heavier. Some of them weigh more than their Milling center counterparts.
WHAT TO BUY: FEATURES
Knee Mills - Common features everyone wants
Power draw bar - just pull the lever an the tool comes out or goes in
Power feed - push the lever, table moves, no cranking the wheel
Digital read out - Most sought after, makes knowing your position easy
Lube system - Keep the tool cool & clean, also makes a mess everywhere an on you
Just get the bare bones. Most popular brand make & models have aftermarket upgrades. While it is nice to get one with a Digital readout, anything used should be considered junk. Only the power draw bar, feed, and lube system are reliable options. DRO's should always be considered defective. If everyone is bidding mad on that one Mill that has a DRO, ask yourself if the risk of it being defective is worth it or should you buy the one with nothing an then buy NEW all the upgrades for it off ebay. A new DRO can set you back $1500 but it's NEW while that mill you spent an extra $1K on has a defective one so now you are out $1K. Power draw bars can be $500, power feed $1K.
Milling centers:
Are essentially the same an usually have all the bells an whistles built in. The computers are irrelevant an you should just accept what you get because you will have to upgrade/replace the entire system. If you are buying one, make sure it works an it's being sold because it's too old & slow instead of "dying". I recommend bankruptcies or "shop floor" clearing auctions. The cost of upgrading an old VMC or HMC is the same as buying TEN old school knee mills............but a VMC or HMC can do the work of 10-20 knee mills with one person operating it so bare that in mind. Just like with the fancy knee mills with all the fancy options, the more complex the VMC/HMC, the more stuff that will break an be insanely expensive to repair aka write off is easier. Of course if you had a KNEE MILL on the side, you could make the parts, yeah maybe you should have got a decent knee mill first
WHAT TO BUY, BRANDS
Knee Mills (for hobbiests an you can get one for good price) Simple, old school, WORKS, fixable
BEST
Bridgeport (USA) - Kinda over hyped, but can't be beat in terms of parts availability. Stick with Series I & II (bigger) an stick with pulley to keep costs down, everyone wants the "J-head" but for the money spent to buy one, you can get a better performing Lagun. Everyone wants a BP mainly because of it's cool 1950's esque esthetics. It's the man caves coca cola machine mill.
Lagun (Spain) - Super duty, FTV-1 (belt, R8), FTV-2 (belt or gear head). all the way up to FTV-5 (massive, stick with FTV-1 or 2 at the most).
Excello (USA) - heavier duty than Bridgeport. The 302 (R8) or 304 in R8 or 40 taper is fine. Stick with the R8 since the 40 is super heavy. This was the first production level machine before Acra, Atrump an the rest of the Asian invasion kicked in. However parts are super hard to get. If you get one, make spare parts ASAP for it.
Wells Index (UK) - A craftsmans mill, most are still good but have been sitting in a shop unused an collecting dust. They are clunky but do really good work. Ol reliable like an AK-47 but none too refined in function (ease of use).
Gordon (USA) - Big, mean, primitive and tough. Weigh a ton, hard to take apart. like an old grand piano stuck in your basement. Known for their "copy master" hydraulic system option...........Gordon sold machines to OLD school machinists who sneered at those new fangle dangled Bridgeports an those "calculators on gears" CNC's that first came out in the 1970's.
Tree - Just the old school ones, same as Wells Index. No one sells the later models because they are well made & reliable. Most companies that sell them will have an employee that will buy it an take them home an that's usually who I find selling these things (an will regret doing so later) cause they are moving an don't want to take it with them.
BEST (but you won't get one) The fancier the machine, the more #### can go wrong.
*NOTE* I joke about the Asian invasion machines as being mostly junk but a few companies lead the pack an make the Yankee machines look sad in comparison. These are production run machines. Small businesses are after these so doubt you will be able to get one for under $1-2K. Now people will say "all those asian machines had cheap castings, they wear out, an they can't be rebuilt". Well that is true to all the cheap knock-offs being pumped out of China but a few of those Taiwanese companies produced good ones that were equal or better than the western ones. Also the "cheap asian stuff" was mostly about machines from the 1960-1980's vintage. They kinda stepped up their game in the 1990's. The "glut" of cheap mills was because demand was so high that anyone who could pump out a casting was hired but only a few places could make the important parts. Taiwanese companies that made 100% of their product were under the wing of the US government sticking their middle finger up at those Commies.
Acra (Taiwan) - really good mill with lots of features, however they beat the hell out of these things since they are so popular to use. Hard to find a good one. Forget getting parts, Acra didn't focus on making parts, just making mills.
ATrump (Taiwan) - Heavy duty, production machine, same as Lagun, Acra & Excello. You won't find these available often let alone for under $4K. They did make some light duty ones an they pop up once in a while, look for one of those but the Laguns, Excellos & Acra's are better bang for buck.
Sharp (Taiwan) - Really nice asian machines, an they look sharp too.
Chevalier (Taiwan) - Same as ATrump an I hardly see these come up that don't command high price tags.
Kent (US/Taiwan) - Hardly ever see these available, usually bought by locals.
GREAT (but not what you should get)
Schaublin (Swiss) - You won't be able to afford one, they are super high in demand, never see one for less than $5K on ebay or ever available. They still can't do what most Bridgeport style mills can do but they are "works of art" in build quality.
Deckel (Germany) - Every machinist wants a Deckel. You aren't going to find one for a decent price an it's not your typical first time mill. These guys were ahead of the game an were more "CNC" like over a decade before everyone else. All modern vertical CNC's took on the Deckel style.
AVOID:
All the other Asian brands that went by a million different names even thou they primarily came out of the same 3 factories in China & Russian (Soviet) junk. Mainly because even if you find a "sweet one", you won't be able to repair them if anything goes wrong. They were made to wear out or the country and/or factory they come from doesn't exist anymore. These are the "Yugo cars" of knee mills.
Milling centers (Vertical or Horizontal) - IF YOU REALLY ARE DEAD SET ON ONE
Bridgeport (US)
Fadal
Haas (US)
Yamazaki (Japan)
Sure there are probably 5-6 more top brands I could list BUT............only these 4 have a nice healthy homebrew market making computer upgrades for them. Sure Centroid who's top dog or Milltronics can upgrade many machines........at the cost of a new car. If you want to do it on a normal working mans budget in a DIY scenario, these four companies are the go too. They made the toughest machines so upgrade companies focus primarily on them. For example the core part of VMC & HMC's is the stepper motors. Many of them were fine tuned to that year & model an are impossible to find if they are old & worn out hence the nicknamed "Unobtainium". The top brands/machines became the "industry standard". There is always an internet forum or youtube video series of a "guy who did it", so before the mob rushes in an buys up all these used machines cause they know how to do it. Get in there. Face it, you aren't "MacGuyver" so you aren't going to figure out how to modify that old machine to get it working. An why bother, you can buy a NEW mini CNC machine for $7-10K with all the features you want. EMCO Group (Austria) Syil (Taiwan), Tormach (USA) and they finance too. They also have models that can operate without 3phase power, so super bonus there.
TRAVELIN
The Border
If it's coming into Canada from the USA, the only thing yo have to pay is your GST and PST. Tools are duty free, especially if you are a farmer/personal use. Just say it's for the farm, an they'll put you right through every time. However if you are having it shipped to you like a knucklehead, now they are going to nail you with every BS charge they can pull out of their ass. One time I bought an diesel engine an wanted it shipped instead of driving down, an that was the one time I put up with crazy hell with someone wanted to ding me with $2500 in duty fees. So I drove down to the border an dealt with it in person. Don't know why this is, maybe my charm & good looks but the moment it's in a "box", they shift gears on their thinking. Knee mills are easy to get, if they have a forklift you can tear them apart easy, they are designed that way, so go do it, get out of the house.
East vs. West.
Since I live in Alberta, it's actually cheaper to get one from the USA than to drive all the way out to Ontario where knee mills are typically commonly available. Also a trip down to the USA is like a mini vacation while a trip to the east coast a is a depressing long haul in wintery wonderland (I don't have time to do this in the Summer). Still the fuel in the USA is cheaper so once I cross the border, I start saving money since everything is cheaper..........even in COMMIEFORNIA. Disregard if you live closer but those of you on the East coast will find buying a high quality used machine is easier south of the border because while I see a lot of good ones available in Ontario............a lot of them actually came up from the USA. Someone brought up a bunch of them, picked the best ones, resold them an selling the scabs online to cover the costs. Dirty bastard (lol) but they aren't bad machines so don't feel like you got totally burned.
So before you rush out here is the short & sweet of it.
PRICES
The reason is primarily two fold.
1. Modern vertical & horizontal milling centers are multimultimulti axis. Some do 7, 11, 14, 18, or even 21 or whatever. Basically they can cut from every damn angle you can think of an within those 1/1000th of a inch tolerance on HEAVY hard materials. So all the old "3" axis centers are too slow.
First gen VMC's made way for the super speed VMC's, an then came the multi-axis, then the multi-multi axis. An so it goes. Nothing wrong with these machines, they just aren't "competitive" anymore.
Machining is TIME + Cost. Every time a human meat bag has to touch the material/work stock, that costs time. So a machine that can for example cut an AR-15 bolt in a single operation is going to be way more profitable than making the same bolt with an old horizontal that need 3-5 operations.
An those old knee mills..............just taking up precious FLOOR SPACE in their buildings where a more efficient & profitable milling center or whatever can go. Nothing wrong with these old machines, but while old knee mills can do ANYTHING but.........they take time to do it. Now you can put a mini-cnc center made in Taiwan in there to make the tools, an old manual mill just can't do it fast enough. Faster faster faster, always faster. I can't wait a half a day for that tool, I NEED IT NOW or yesterday!!!
2. Pennies per pound, it will cost you more in gas money to go get it or shipping than to buy it. For example on Bidspotter old belt pulley manual bridgeports rarely break $1000. So with that 20-30% bidder fee BS that's $1400-1700 USD, So basically $2K flat rate. But if you are patient you can get a "Gear head" with Digital read out an all the trimmings & tools for $2-3K which is a steal............an a knee mill can be taken apart an fit nicely in the back of a good sized pickup truck. Most mills weigh in at 2000-4500 lbs. We used just a simple gantry crane at princess auto to take it apart an put it back together (while cleaning & inspecting it).
WHERE TO BUY
Avoid - general auctions since it's usually junk they are getting rid of, unless you know what you are looking at the rule of thumb it's worn out scrap. However sometimes they send that one odd "obsolete" piece to the auction but if you are clueless on what to look for, just forget about it. There is no power at an auction to turn on the machine, give it a shake an check the ways. You need measuring tools and know-how for that.
So avoid mills at auctions, they usually are totally worn out junk only good for spare parts. I'm currently bidding on an Acra in Saskatoon but only because my neighbor has the same model an wants spare parts. You might get lucky an find a decent one you can fix up, but never spend more than $1K. Something many fail to understand based on the prices I see these things going for at Richie Bro auctions. Yikes wtf they thinkin'
Avoid - Craigslist & Kijiji for the most part or take this one story in mind. A lot of mills you see on craigslist or kijiji came from people buying from these auctions an reselling them there. Of course they usually do this with the totally junk ones they get, so watch out. One guy bought a used mill at an Ontario auction an realized it was broke an since it was a totally one off Asian knock-off, so he was selling it for the same price he paid for it on kijiji. A lot of mills have no way to repair them unless you are an engineer capable of building a space shuttle in your back yard.
GoTo: Company Bankruptcies or liquidating old stock to make room for new:
To these companies getting rid of this stuff, it's just a tax write off.
WHAT TO GET
Manual Knee vs. Old Milling Center.
Manual knees especially in R8 collet are never to cost more than $2K because driving down to get one an come back always costs me $500 in fuel alone. I like doing this because it's just an excuse to go on a road trip an see the cuties in California (where most of the mills I buy are from). So when I go to get one, I always ask for $3K an I can always find that one "good one" at an auction somewhere within 3000 miles. I joke an say I charge $1/km. To get something of equal quality up here, I never see them go for less than $4K an that's bare bones, no DRO's, no lube, no powerbar.
Also most light duty knee mills do still require 3 phase power BUT you can get those 3 phase converters quite easily for a decent price or even follow those "how to" youtube video instructions. If you can't figure out the electrical stuff like how to wire up this stuff then give up hope on operating a mill. Might as well stop reading now. LOL it's not too hard, just take your time an stop playing video games or watching internet #### an educate yourself.
Everyone hypes on about "40 taper" tooling but it's SUPER EXPENSIVE. But R8 is all you need for a hobby mill and R8 can do what 40 taper can do....you just have to go slower an make lighter cuts. Even a dinky lil mill like a Precision Matthews PM-25MV that's quite popular can build a "glock slide" if I use a diamond tipped cutter an I go at it for a entire day non-stop getting carpal tunnel in my neck. Unless you plan on buying a Milling Center in the future that uses that type of tooling, just go with R8 on a manual mill, it'll do just fine an the tools can be had for cheap. Plenty of R8 tooling available pennies per pound at auctions since companies have machines that don't use it anymore, get it while you can.
O an before you say "O I see 40 taper ____ on ebay an it looks decently prices". Yeah more like worn out junk being hawked on gullible idiots. Just because it looks "shiny" doesn't mean it's good. Or it's someone selling bits & bobbles he bought at an auction that were just tossed in a hodge podge box sold by the pound. You never know for sure thou unless you are there holding a micronmeter gauge to it.
Ok so the milling centers.....................massive bulky machines that are lugging a big heavy awkward mattress. They barely fit on a flat deck trailer an they can not be "taken down" into smaller bite sized chunks. If you are hell bent set on one, get the ones from the 1990's as they got the size of them down to a more manageable level. However the weight of them is usually double that of a manual knee mill. Some of those clunkers from the 1980's were colossus in weight an even worse in dimensions. Forget about them. Let the "yokel locals" have them. So most of my advice of getting a mill is based entirely on getting an old manual Knee mill because of ease of picking one up yourself, cost of getting one, an the enjoyment of doing so (road trip, I call shotgun). Unless that milling center is in the same province, forget about it. People have died moving those F'ing things. Never buy one at a regular auction, those should be considered scrap iron. Only companies buying them for parts or for refurbish are after those. Beware of idiots who "crashed" the machine one too may times. These are write offs. Look at youtube videos of crashed CNC to see what i mean. another reason to avoid buying these mills at regular auctions or "used" off kijiji/craigslist.
Milling centers all use typically a "40 taper" style of tooling. The lil fellahs used the smaller 30 taper while the massive machines used 50 taper. Typically you should go with 40 taper because anything that used 30 taper was considered a "specialty" niche machine that will be impossible to upgrade or repair, an why would you need anything in 50 taper let alone be able to move the damn thing. Many people will literally GIVE you the machine for free if you can haul the damn thing out of there. Anything that used "proprietary" tooling not any of three mentioned were selling their tools, not the machines. Kinda like printers which sell the printer at a loss so you are buying they're ink cartridges at a massive mark up. Still many milling centers from top brands were built to last an are upgrade-able if those outdated electronics/computers are too clunky to use or die on yeah.
Finally are those "CNC knee mills". O dear god avoid these, it's "LIPSTICK ON A PIG". While some old mills easily take the upgrade because they were already "CNC" ish like those Deckels, most were never designed to handle that movement. When they designed the "Bridgeport" style, that was with a human turning those handles, they were only upgraded with "harder way's to handle power feeds later on. The moment you add CNC to that setup, it's like adding 40 years of use in less than 10. Sure you increase production, but you wear them out MUCH MUCH faster. Old CNC knee mills are a laughing stock but people keep buying them. Businesses who buy them are usually those making parts that don't require high accuracy. It's volume not quality. They are essentially a poor mans CNC. They stopped making these things in the 1990's.
NOW there are SOME that are built super tough because the companies knew the design had to be altered to handle the extra wear & tear. If you look at them you can clearly see how they look like a regular knee mill but they made "changes" while all the others are just knee mills with CNC kits slapped on them. .........an I would recommend buying one if you can find one. So super quick
Bridgeport - Boss series 1to7. This is the one you are most likely to find for a decent price an is easy to work with an upgrade.
Deckel (Germany) FP-1 to FP-4. Also decent to find.........but really really expensive. Every machinist wants a deckel.
Kent USA
Hurco - Great, but hard to work with for upgrades or repairs that aren't wallet busting.
Acra (Taiwan)
Only a few companies like Kent & Acra still make these kinds of mills because there is still demand for this "niche". Acra doesn't really make parts......except for this as it's their bread & butter. An yes, they can be "taken down" for easier handling/shipping but they are more difficult to deal with, an much much more heavier. Some of them weigh more than their Milling center counterparts.
WHAT TO BUY: FEATURES
Knee Mills - Common features everyone wants
Power draw bar - just pull the lever an the tool comes out or goes in
Power feed - push the lever, table moves, no cranking the wheel
Digital read out - Most sought after, makes knowing your position easy
Lube system - Keep the tool cool & clean, also makes a mess everywhere an on you
Just get the bare bones. Most popular brand make & models have aftermarket upgrades. While it is nice to get one with a Digital readout, anything used should be considered junk. Only the power draw bar, feed, and lube system are reliable options. DRO's should always be considered defective. If everyone is bidding mad on that one Mill that has a DRO, ask yourself if the risk of it being defective is worth it or should you buy the one with nothing an then buy NEW all the upgrades for it off ebay. A new DRO can set you back $1500 but it's NEW while that mill you spent an extra $1K on has a defective one so now you are out $1K. Power draw bars can be $500, power feed $1K.
Milling centers:
Are essentially the same an usually have all the bells an whistles built in. The computers are irrelevant an you should just accept what you get because you will have to upgrade/replace the entire system. If you are buying one, make sure it works an it's being sold because it's too old & slow instead of "dying". I recommend bankruptcies or "shop floor" clearing auctions. The cost of upgrading an old VMC or HMC is the same as buying TEN old school knee mills............but a VMC or HMC can do the work of 10-20 knee mills with one person operating it so bare that in mind. Just like with the fancy knee mills with all the fancy options, the more complex the VMC/HMC, the more stuff that will break an be insanely expensive to repair aka write off is easier. Of course if you had a KNEE MILL on the side, you could make the parts, yeah maybe you should have got a decent knee mill first
WHAT TO BUY, BRANDS
Knee Mills (for hobbiests an you can get one for good price) Simple, old school, WORKS, fixable
BEST
Bridgeport (USA) - Kinda over hyped, but can't be beat in terms of parts availability. Stick with Series I & II (bigger) an stick with pulley to keep costs down, everyone wants the "J-head" but for the money spent to buy one, you can get a better performing Lagun. Everyone wants a BP mainly because of it's cool 1950's esque esthetics. It's the man caves coca cola machine mill.
Lagun (Spain) - Super duty, FTV-1 (belt, R8), FTV-2 (belt or gear head). all the way up to FTV-5 (massive, stick with FTV-1 or 2 at the most).
Excello (USA) - heavier duty than Bridgeport. The 302 (R8) or 304 in R8 or 40 taper is fine. Stick with the R8 since the 40 is super heavy. This was the first production level machine before Acra, Atrump an the rest of the Asian invasion kicked in. However parts are super hard to get. If you get one, make spare parts ASAP for it.
Wells Index (UK) - A craftsmans mill, most are still good but have been sitting in a shop unused an collecting dust. They are clunky but do really good work. Ol reliable like an AK-47 but none too refined in function (ease of use).
Gordon (USA) - Big, mean, primitive and tough. Weigh a ton, hard to take apart. like an old grand piano stuck in your basement. Known for their "copy master" hydraulic system option...........Gordon sold machines to OLD school machinists who sneered at those new fangle dangled Bridgeports an those "calculators on gears" CNC's that first came out in the 1970's.
Tree - Just the old school ones, same as Wells Index. No one sells the later models because they are well made & reliable. Most companies that sell them will have an employee that will buy it an take them home an that's usually who I find selling these things (an will regret doing so later) cause they are moving an don't want to take it with them.
BEST (but you won't get one) The fancier the machine, the more #### can go wrong.
*NOTE* I joke about the Asian invasion machines as being mostly junk but a few companies lead the pack an make the Yankee machines look sad in comparison. These are production run machines. Small businesses are after these so doubt you will be able to get one for under $1-2K. Now people will say "all those asian machines had cheap castings, they wear out, an they can't be rebuilt". Well that is true to all the cheap knock-offs being pumped out of China but a few of those Taiwanese companies produced good ones that were equal or better than the western ones. Also the "cheap asian stuff" was mostly about machines from the 1960-1980's vintage. They kinda stepped up their game in the 1990's. The "glut" of cheap mills was because demand was so high that anyone who could pump out a casting was hired but only a few places could make the important parts. Taiwanese companies that made 100% of their product were under the wing of the US government sticking their middle finger up at those Commies.
Acra (Taiwan) - really good mill with lots of features, however they beat the hell out of these things since they are so popular to use. Hard to find a good one. Forget getting parts, Acra didn't focus on making parts, just making mills.
ATrump (Taiwan) - Heavy duty, production machine, same as Lagun, Acra & Excello. You won't find these available often let alone for under $4K. They did make some light duty ones an they pop up once in a while, look for one of those but the Laguns, Excellos & Acra's are better bang for buck.
Sharp (Taiwan) - Really nice asian machines, an they look sharp too.
Chevalier (Taiwan) - Same as ATrump an I hardly see these come up that don't command high price tags.
Kent (US/Taiwan) - Hardly ever see these available, usually bought by locals.
GREAT (but not what you should get)
Schaublin (Swiss) - You won't be able to afford one, they are super high in demand, never see one for less than $5K on ebay or ever available. They still can't do what most Bridgeport style mills can do but they are "works of art" in build quality.
Deckel (Germany) - Every machinist wants a Deckel. You aren't going to find one for a decent price an it's not your typical first time mill. These guys were ahead of the game an were more "CNC" like over a decade before everyone else. All modern vertical CNC's took on the Deckel style.
AVOID:
All the other Asian brands that went by a million different names even thou they primarily came out of the same 3 factories in China & Russian (Soviet) junk. Mainly because even if you find a "sweet one", you won't be able to repair them if anything goes wrong. They were made to wear out or the country and/or factory they come from doesn't exist anymore. These are the "Yugo cars" of knee mills.
Milling centers (Vertical or Horizontal) - IF YOU REALLY ARE DEAD SET ON ONE
Bridgeport (US)
Fadal
Haas (US)
Yamazaki (Japan)
Sure there are probably 5-6 more top brands I could list BUT............only these 4 have a nice healthy homebrew market making computer upgrades for them. Sure Centroid who's top dog or Milltronics can upgrade many machines........at the cost of a new car. If you want to do it on a normal working mans budget in a DIY scenario, these four companies are the go too. They made the toughest machines so upgrade companies focus primarily on them. For example the core part of VMC & HMC's is the stepper motors. Many of them were fine tuned to that year & model an are impossible to find if they are old & worn out hence the nicknamed "Unobtainium". The top brands/machines became the "industry standard". There is always an internet forum or youtube video series of a "guy who did it", so before the mob rushes in an buys up all these used machines cause they know how to do it. Get in there. Face it, you aren't "MacGuyver" so you aren't going to figure out how to modify that old machine to get it working. An why bother, you can buy a NEW mini CNC machine for $7-10K with all the features you want. EMCO Group (Austria) Syil (Taiwan), Tormach (USA) and they finance too. They also have models that can operate without 3phase power, so super bonus there.
TRAVELIN
The Border
If it's coming into Canada from the USA, the only thing yo have to pay is your GST and PST. Tools are duty free, especially if you are a farmer/personal use. Just say it's for the farm, an they'll put you right through every time. However if you are having it shipped to you like a knucklehead, now they are going to nail you with every BS charge they can pull out of their ass. One time I bought an diesel engine an wanted it shipped instead of driving down, an that was the one time I put up with crazy hell with someone wanted to ding me with $2500 in duty fees. So I drove down to the border an dealt with it in person. Don't know why this is, maybe my charm & good looks but the moment it's in a "box", they shift gears on their thinking. Knee mills are easy to get, if they have a forklift you can tear them apart easy, they are designed that way, so go do it, get out of the house.
East vs. West.
Since I live in Alberta, it's actually cheaper to get one from the USA than to drive all the way out to Ontario where knee mills are typically commonly available. Also a trip down to the USA is like a mini vacation while a trip to the east coast a is a depressing long haul in wintery wonderland (I don't have time to do this in the Summer). Still the fuel in the USA is cheaper so once I cross the border, I start saving money since everything is cheaper..........even in COMMIEFORNIA. Disregard if you live closer but those of you on the East coast will find buying a high quality used machine is easier south of the border because while I see a lot of good ones available in Ontario............a lot of them actually came up from the USA. Someone brought up a bunch of them, picked the best ones, resold them an selling the scabs online to cover the costs. Dirty bastard (lol) but they aren't bad machines so don't feel like you got totally burned.
