OAL for a Shadow...

A

aridan

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Doing my first 9mm reloads for the Shadow (and the 941 Jericho), using Aim 124gr plated bullet. The recommended OAL is 1.100, but I read enough complaints about 1.100 getting stuck in the barrel, so tried to keep mine around 1.090.

For some reason, my OAL is all over the place: from 1.085 to 1.098. Some of the longer ones do not fall out of the barrel freely. I'm using a Hornady LnL AP with Hornady dies. I don't like how easy it is to move the seating adjustment on the seating die: its the top screw that is locked only marginally by the knurl underneath - the knurl itself is locked by a rubber washer, that's all. I suspect the contraption gets loose after a few dozen rounds. Crimping is done separately: I'm using Lee Factory die, and the neck diameter after crimping is same as in factory ammo (I checked with my micrometer).

As I said, some rounds are 'lightly stuck' in the barrel of my Shadow. However, all of them pass the barrel test in the Jericho. Last time, I shot about 50 rounds from each, and had one FTE (spent case stuck in the barrel, being pushed by the next round from the mag) with the Shadow, and no problems whatsoever with the 941 Jericho. I am not willing to work up separate loads for these two guns, and, if possible, would like both of them to eat the same ammo reliably.

Can someone recommend what to do? TIA.
 
First things first.

1) Is your sizing die adjusted to a light crush fit to the shellplate?
2) Are you belling your cases just enough to allow the base to enter?
3) Does your seating die contact the tip of the bullet, or the ogive? Variation in bullet shape at the ogive will result in variation in OAL.
4) Is your crimp excessive? The way to find the correct diameter is to take the actual diameter of the bullet + (2x case wall thickness) - .001
5) Is your LFC die adjusted down to the shellplate, just like the sizing die? It needs to be. Adjust the crimp after adjusting the die body.
 
I have the same problem with 9mm, Hornady LNL ap with Lee dies, aim 147 gr. They will be out 8 thou either way. When I load 40 SW they are within 2 thou. I have just assumed that there is a lot of variance in 9mm brass (mixed headstamp).
 
Canuck223 said:
First things first.

1) Is your sizing die adjusted to a light crush fit to the shellplate?
Yes.
2) Are you belling your cases just enough to allow the base to enter?
Yes, just barely.
3) Does your seating die contact the tip of the bullet, or the ogive? Variation in bullet shape at the ogive will result in variation in OAL.
The tip, as far as I can tell...
4) Is your crimp excessive? The way to find the correct diameter is to take the actual diameter of the bullet + (2x case wall thickness) - .001
It isn't. The diff between crimped & uncrimped diameters is .003, I'm using just 1/4 turn of the crimp die after it touches the shell.
5) Is your LFC die adjusted down to the shellplate, just like the sizing die? It needs to be. Adjust the crimp after adjusting the die body.
Its done exactly as you described.
Click to expand...

Thanks, what's next?
 
What is the diameter of the brass right at the case mouth?

When you say some cases are sticking in the barrel, I assume you have the barrel in your hand? Do they drop in and not drop out when the barrel is inverted?
 
Canuck223 said:
What is the diameter of the brass right at the case mouth?

When you say some cases are sticking in the barrel, I assume you have the barrel in your hand? Do they drop in and not drop out when the barrel is inverted?
Click to expand...
Canuck223, thanks for helping me out. Here it goes:

Sized brass: 0.373
Belled: 0.381
Bullet Seated: 0.379
Crimped: 0.376

Wall thickness: 0.010
Bullet diameter: 0.357
Based on your formula: 0.357 + 2X 0.010 - 0.001 = 0.376 which is exactly as you recommended.

Compared to S&B Factory ammo: their case mouth diameter is 0.379.

I need to take back my statement about the seating die contacting the tip vs. the ogive: it is definitely NOT the tip. The seater is convex so it contacts the side of the bullet but I cannot tell if it is contacting at the ogive or not.

I'm waiting for more instructions. :) Thanks again.
 
do you mix headstamps cases ? In my Shadow, Win & Speer are less tight in the chamber than Rem

if they've been shot with a Glock before they might have a little buldge that doesn't get away unless you roll-resized the cases
 
Yes, I do mix headstamps - but that's not it...

I decided to get away from 9mm for the moment - so last weekend I switched to .40S&W. The setup went without a hitch. I then ran 3 batches of 200 loads on different days. The OAL stayed the same. So today, I decided to revisit the 9mm. I ran my setup again & took measurements, so here it goes:

1. Using my dremel, I made a split-case gauge and measured OAL with the AIM 124gr bullet just touching the lands. That OAL is 1.110 in the barrel of my Shadow.

2. I picked 30 S&B cases that I fired once, to eliminate the headstamp issue.

3. Suspecting that the shape of AIM bullet may have some variance, I decided to use a flat seater instead of the curved one, so that the seater would work against the tip of the bullet, not the ogive. With a case in my sizing die, I made a dummy round with OAL = 1.090, giving myself a 0.020 margin to account for worst-case variance. I adjusted the seating die an my Lee FCD until the round was not only dropping out freely from my Shadow's barrel, but I could also turn it freely while inside the barrel.

4. I made 10 live rounds. NONE of them passed the barrel test. :confused: I then measured their OAL. It was from 1.100 to 1.110 - nowhere close to my dummy round. I used the dummy round to readjust the seating die again: same story. The dummy is 1.090 - any of the live rounds are 1.100 and up. WTF???

5. I tweaked the OAL on live rounds, added another 1/4 turn on Lee FCD, and resized/recrimped the 10 rounds. Measuring them afterwards, I got OAL from 1.090 to 1.0925 - finally, much smaller variance than before.

6. Making no adjustments, I made another 10 rounds. This time, I got OAL from 1.092 to 1.103 - again, all higher than 1.090, and most rounds - a lot higher... Some pass the barrel test - some don't . Here's the irony: I got two rounds measuring exactly the same, 1.096 - one passes the barrel test, the other one fails.

I seem to be at the end of my rope here - I have no idea what's going on. The only difference I can think of: when adjusting for OAL, I have a case in the sizing die plus the dummy round in the seating die. Production runs have all stations occupied (most of the time).

One more thing: I noticed my Lee FCD is leaving a band of unworked brass at the case head, about 2mm high. I know it cannot possibly work that part - but neither can the seating die. Having brass pass the seating die, I see the ring but I don't feel it. Passing through the FCD, I can feel it when running my nail over it. This is probably normal, I just don't know what else could be wrong with my setup.

Guys, once again, I need your help! TIA.
 
I'm loading 1.110" with either 124GR or 147GR CMJ RN bullets (Campro) so length in your situation should not be an issue

Are you using any lube ? are your cases sticky ? Chamber clean ?

Are your "deviant" rounds always longer or shorter that what you're aiming at ?

SB
 
Snowboy said:
I'm loading 1.110" with either 124GR or 147GR CMJ RN bullets (Campro) so length in your situation should not be an issue

Are you using any lube ? are your cases sticky ? Chamber clean ?

Are your "deviant" rounds always longer or shorter that what you're aiming at ?

SB
Click to expand...
I use Ballistol for lube, no grease. It wipes off easily.

The rounds are always longer.
 
When you're making your "dummies", do you make them pass through every station of the press ?

Because if you only put them on the bullet seating station and the case has not been resized, the bullet might go deeper than with your resized cases for the same handle stroke...

I cannot see anything else and all my stuff is Dillon so I know nothing about Lee stuff...

maybe if they have a hotline they can help you with some "common issue" they might encounter

SB
 
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Snowboy said:
When you're making your "dummies", do you make them pass through every station of the press ?

maybe if they have a hotline they can help you with some "common issue" they might encounter

SB
Click to expand...
Yes I did, but I only had a case in the sizing die when adjusting the dummy round. I will re-adjust the whole thing next weekend, while having all stations working. If I have no luck again - I'll call Hornady then.
 
Ariden, how'd this work out for you? I'm having the same problems, and I'm using the RCBS carbide die set. I have some that won't drop and only one that will. All have the same OAL of 1.11, and the same crimp of .376. All are Win 9mm once fired from my Shadow.
edited to add: I'm using the Campro 124gr semi-wadcutter (or as close to a SWC as they get) plated bullets, and the flat nose seater plug.

Also, I like to make up dummy rounds before I go charging them with powder and making live rounds, but RCBS in their directions say clearly I should set up my seating die thusly:

"To adjust the seater die, place a sized, primed, and powder-charged case into the shell holder and run it to the top of the press stroke." etc, etc.

Anyone know why?
 
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Ogive, ogive and ogive again, and how consistent it is.
That's what I've heard of AIM from a couple of people, they are not very consistent in shape.
Here is a link that will give you a visual (reply #7 and #10) and a few pointers:
www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=32055.0
 
+1 on the ogive.

I ended up making an OAL gauge for my 9mm loads: take a sized, unprimed 9mm brass, with a Dremel cut 2 slits on opposite sides from the throat down to about half-way. This allows your bullet to move inside the cartridge with a bit of an effort. Start the bullet down the throat, stick this into your barrel - field-stripped, of course - the bullet will hit the lands & slide more into the brass. Carefully take this out & measure the OAL. I then subtract 0.020 just to account for my press variance. This becomes my OAL for THIS barrel & THIS bullet type.

I loaded over 1,500 AIM since then without a problem. I also loaded about the same amount of Canadian BDX FMJs - doing the OAL gauging first - and had no issues whatsoever. I do use the flat seater stem with both AIM & BDX.

Make sure you have all stations except powder charging full when you adjust seating depth, not having a case in the sizing die will give you incorrect OAL - shorter than if sizing die is involved.

RCBS instructions are for making a live round - obviously you should ignore primer & powder recommendations if you're making a dummy.
 
My turn to tear my hair out I guess. :D

I made up a depth gauge as per above, hit the lands at 1.122, subtracted .020 and a bit and we end up at the standard 1.10 OAL. I have the .376 crimp, and still none of the dummies I'm making up will drop.
I have 2 "mistakes" (in my attempts at finding the perfect dummy) that drop freely, but their OAL's are 1.088 and 1.076 respectively. I know these are way too short, but what is the minimum OAL for a Shadow?

Given that all the ones that won't drop will come free with either a tap on the barrel or minimal pressure withdrawing it, how important is it that the rounds drop freely?
I don't know if it's important, but I'm using my single stage press for this. It's the only press I have and likely to remain that way for a good while...

Anyway, from my reading on this subject, it appears that the round nose bullets are far easier to deal with, which raises question #2: should I sell these Campro 124gr sorta-SWC and go with RN, or persist and beat this issue? It bugs me that I can't seem to master this.
 
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Is your chamber/barrel clean?
What dies are you using?
If you need minimal force to remove round, you may be good. But round nose bullets feed smoother either way just due to their geometery.
The shortest and current load (with RN bullets) I use with great success has OAL 1.085" in my CZs.
 
I've just gone through two weeks of trying to get the Lee seating die to seat consistently for my 9mm bullets. It didn't matter if I was seating lead or fmj's, OAL would vary by 5 to 8 thou. The seating insert part of the Lee die is deeply inset so I looked at my Hornady dies for my 40 and it came with two insets, deep inset and flat. I made a flat nose insert on my lathe for the Lee and the problem disappeared. It appears to me that the Lee die doesn't work all that well with some bullet shapes.
 
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CeeZer said:
Is your chamber/barrel clean?
What dies are you using?
If you need minimal force to remove round, you may be good. But round nose bullets feed smoother either way just due to their geometery.
The shortest and current load (with RN bullets) I use with great success has OAL 1.085" in my CZs.
Click to expand...

I cleaned the chamber and barrel, and some of those that didn't want to drop will now do so with a minor tap, so some improvement there. I'm using RCBS Carbide dies, and have set up the sizer as per the instructions: no camover.
The expander is set up so that it just barely bells the case mouth; the bullet will sit there whereas it wouldn't before expanding.
I'm using the flat nose seater plug insert in the seater/crimper.
 
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