OCW with 30-06 H4350 and 165gr SST

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BarneyRubble

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Although I have a load that my 06 loves using IMR4320, I thought I would try out some H4350 as virtually everyone says the 4350's are the go-to powder for an 06. I decided to try the OCW method and hopefully I haven't screwed it up too badly. Typically I have simply shot groups, looked for the best one, load some more and see if it has decent hunting groups at 200 yards and if I can ring the gongs on the range out to 575 yards, then I call it good.

I started off with 55.5grains, then 55.8, 56.1, 56.4 and shot 5 of each of those.

55.5 vertically spread along aim axis over 1.5"
55.8 all within 1" left or right of vertical axis and 1.75" vertical spread
56.1 - 1 on vertical axis, rest either left of right 1.5" and 2in vertical spread
56.4 - only shot 4? but 0.5 inch from vertical axis left or right, and total vertical spread of 1"

This wasn't telling me much, 56.4 looks promising but want to keep going.

Loaded up 57 to 58.5 in half grain increments, this 0.3 thing killing me on components.

57- weird looking group, maybe just me getting warmed up, If I call 2 fliers, then I have a 3 shot group of less than an inch, centred on the vertical axis, max vertical spread of 1in, horiz 0.5 inch
57.5 - 1 flier, 4 shot group 1.1 inchs. Max vertical spread 0.5 in.
58- 2 inch group, max vert spread 1.75 max horiz 1.25, 2 bullets touch.
58.5 - 1 flier, 4 shot group 1.7 inchs, left or right of vertical axis 1in, max vert spread of 1.5 inch.

I plotted the centres of all the groups, For reference I will call the center of 56.4 ZERO, center of 57, 0.5 inch right and on plane, center of 57.5 0.5 inch up, center of 58 0.5 inch right and on plane, center of 58.5 0.5 inch up. 56.1 1.2 inch low, 55.8 0.5 in left, center of 55.5 0.5 inch low, 1.5 inch left.

Now over the 2 days I shot these, I shot the first 4 off a front bag only, and as I had shot nearly 150 rounds of various CF that day was feeling a bit shoulder sore, and used a lead sled for the last 4, I had a hard time getting that sled set and steady due to all the frost on the bench thus the called fliers, and should have likely continued to shoot of the front bag.

I would post pictures but the targets were a little damp and had a rough trip home from the range, I suppose I could plot on a couple targets and try to post if I can figure that out.

I think I have a node around 57.5. I think my next test will be 57.3, 57.6, 57.9,

Max load is around 59 grains, I might just as well shoot some at 59 to complete the series to see how that goes. It's a Tikka T3 lite, 20 inch barrel.

Any tips, comments or suggestions welcome! And sorry if this is confusing!
 
With OCW, I plot the average x and y from POA for each group and then look for the loop:

ocw.jpg


In this case, I would be doing some further investigation/finer tuning between 45 and 48. You should give Kombayotch a poke and see if he'll join in.
 
I should add that a most excellent tool for this is a free software called "On Target". You scan your target and then using the software, set POA and then indicate your shots. It calculates average POI, group size, etc.
 
I use 57gr of h4350 with 165gr sst. Speed of 2830 area. Shoots 3/4". Imr 4350 I use 57gr as well and shoots a few fps faster. 48gr if 4350 will be mighty slow
 
Read up on the neck sine wave. http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=213837 Finding that out made things a lot simpler...

It's a good indicator of adequate pressure, and gives you a good place to start working from... If you don't have enough pressure, the neck will be black all around, and possibly the shoulder. So, it saves a lot of time and components if you just fire one shot of each charge weight till you see those sine wave and make note of that charge... Work up slowly till you see pressure signs beginning, and back off a full grain or grain and a half. Then you work in the range between a grain or grain and a half below pressure signs, and the point where the sine wave showed up. Seat your bullets right into the lands, and that will show pressure much sooner... http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting-the-best-precision-and-accuracy-from-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle/ When you settle on a load, play with seating depth...

Reading pressure signs from case base expansion can be read about on the Hodgdon's website... http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/rel...-trick-monitoring-pressure-your-rifle-reloads When checking for pressure, I could fire the gun into the ground 10 ft in front of me for all I care...

With my 270, for example, it seems to not like the book max with IMR 7828, it was too low. The case neck was not sealing fully. I had to go well and thoroughly above what 3 reloading books and almost all online sources said was max... I'm actually at the point where I'm just about going to be dumping powder till it reaches the neck, and jamming the bullet on top... The CZs seem to love things really hot...

If you don't have adequate pressure to seal the case neck fully, it seems to erode the neck area of the chamber...

I had a sloppy chamber on a Parker hale 270. The performance was anemic at best for a 270, and it was a pain to get the case out because it would jamb into the erosion. That was probably caused by the sloppy chamber reducing the pressure of the case when firing and the case mouth not sealing the neck area of the chamber, thus eroding the neck in the gun chamber... I wound up polishing the neck area till it stopped imprinting on the brass... After that, I could only neck size. The case was largely expanded... Right on the outer limit of SAMMI specs. To get a proper case neck seal, it required a compressed load of imr 4064 behind a 150 grain bullet... IIRC it was 15 gr over the highest max load I could find... It worked and shot like a hot damn and was accurate. However, brass was splitting necks on a regular basis due to overworking when neck sizing... I sold the gun to a guy who wanted to build something different and needed an action, stock and bottom metal...

The companies that do the research for loads seem to use very tightly reamed match chambers when doing the research to publish loads... Looser chambers need more powder to get to pressure IME... Books also seem to use 26" barrels for standard cartriges. Most hunting rifles in standard cartridges are 20-24". 26" barrels are for magnum cartridges...

If you fire a gun in low light or at night, if the load is too low, you will see unburned powder flying out the end of the barrel. However, doing this may be illegal in your area... I've never checked, but it would stand to reason that if there's unburned powder coming out the end of the barrel, there will be unburned powder in the barrel as well... I have also noticed that at the proper pressures, the inside of the case mouth is more grey in color than soot black...
 
Good post and read amosfella, but 15 grains over max with 4064 in a 270?!?!? You sure it wasn't chambered for 270 WBY? Lol
 
Cleftwynd said:
Good post and read amosfella, but 15 grains over max with 4064 in a 270?!?!? You sure it wasn't chambered for 270 WBY? Lol
Click to expand...

I read the barrel stamp at least 30 times to be sure... lol

IIRC as this was about 4 years ago, and I don't have the records, if I took a factory sized winchester case, it would hold 60.5 gr 7828 to the bottom of the neck... After firing in the gun, it would hold just over 72.
 
looch said:
With OCW, I plot the average x and y from POA for each group and then look for the loop:

ocw.jpg


In this case, I would be doing some further investigation/finer tuning between 45 and 48. You should give Kombayotch a poke and see if he'll join in.
Click to expand...

Don't want to necro anything here...But I'm gonna try that. OCW on my son's rifle has my analysis all over the place. Good tip on the software.

Regards
Ron
 
You commented how much the group is left or right of axis. Don't bother. Not relevant.

What matters is vertical and horizontal spread. I just measure the vertical and choose on that basis. If there is horizontal, it comes from the rifle, not the ammo.

Testing at 200 for a 30-06 hunting rifle is very good idea. I would call 1.5MOA good enough, but would look for better if it was available through a change in powder charge.
 
Ganderite said:
You commented how much the group is left or right of axis. Don't bother. Not relevant.

What matters is vertical and horizontal spread. I just measure the vertical and choose on that basis. If there is horizontal, it comes from the rifle, not the ammo.

Testing at 200 for a 30-06 hunting rifle is very good idea. I would call 1.5MOA good enough, but would look for better if it was available through a change in powder charge.
Click to expand...

Vertical spread was all I am going to plot, thanks for confirming my thoughts regarding relevance of horizontal spread and shift in poi. (Results for us were from 200 yds.)

The thought is to overlay range sessions over one another to further define patterns.

Regards Ganderite.

Ron
 
amosfella said:
Read up on the neck sine wave. http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=213837 Finding that out made things a lot simpler...

It's a good indicator of adequate pressure, and gives you a good place to start working from... If you don't have enough pressure, the neck will be black all around, and possibly the shoulder. So, it saves a lot of time and components if you just fire one shot of each charge weight till you see those sine wave and make note of that charge... Work up slowly till you see pressure signs beginning, and back off a full grain or grain and a half. Then you work in the range between a grain or grain and a half below pressure signs, and the point where the sine wave showed up. Seat your bullets right into the lands, and that will show pressure much sooner... http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting-the-best-precision-and-accuracy-from-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle/ When you settle on a load, play with seating depth......
Click to expand...


Excellent information. (Very happy I came across this thread.) Explains much of what we've seen during load development. That sine wave deposit shape is very neat and I'll be looking for that in the future for sure.

Here, new fire formed cases using min levels of powder had necks that were black using W760 and far less with IMR 4166. 4166 had much less "fouling" on the necks and my sophomore naivety suggested it was the additives in the Enduron technology. It was very likely just more pressure causing a better seal with 4166.

Another thing I noticed after was that there was still a point at which my finger nail would catch a minor ridge at the neck shoulder junction (cases were neck turned) post fire forming, additionally, the shoulders didn't seem to move at all when measured which was a surprise. (Federal cases stretched lots) I am relating these findings also to insufficient pressure. The same cases were started in hunting load development and the second firing has made that juncture smooth and brought the shoulders up by .002. This is still .004 less than chamber max, and will confirm with Mystic's masking tape method. Much less stretch with Lapua and PRVI.

Thanks for posting this response amosfella a while back.

Regards
Ron
 
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