OLD Double barrel SxS shotgun?

G

ginnz

Regular
EE Expired
Rating - 97.5%
39   1   0
Location
100 miles north 100 miles south, manitoba
Hi guys,

I need some help here, possibly valuing a old SxS shotgun I acquired last weekend. Its an OLD SxS Double barrel 12 ga. shotgun. Its got Damascus barrels, twin hammers, and triggers, and has the barrel release on a big swiveling lever under the trigger guard. Originally it had a fine checkered stock and fore end, (but the checkering is worn almost smooth) and the metal is heavily engraved and the only markings I can find is "H.Adkin Maker Bedford" on the top of the barrel between the two barrels close to the chamber end. And "H.Adkin" on each side of the metal on the buttstock. The serial number is written as "No 958" on the metal on the bottom side of the rear stock where the hand would go, and on the inside of the action "#958".... This would certainly appear to be a very early number?

The shotgun accepts 2 1/4" 12 ga. rounds. But at this time, I am very hesitant to try it! I dunno, maybe with the weakest trap loads, with 7 1/2 or 9 shot.... but prolly not. The barrels appear to be in good condition, but, their old.

I found quite a bit of info on a gun maker from England named Henry Atin, but next to nothing on a Henry Adkin.... there is mention of him making shotguns marked "Henry Adkin and Sons, Bedford, England", but not this one.

Does anyone have any idea what I have here? would it be made in the late 1800's? And what value, if any could it possibly have?

And info on this old stick is greatly appreciated!

Ginnz.
 
The lever is a Jones style under lever, they were quite popular with the English at one time.
Got any pics of the marks on the barrel and water table?
DO NOT fire modern trap loads in it until you gave confirmed that it is nitro proofed!!
I can give you some low pressure smokeless load data for it if you hand load, but I would shoot BP loads in it , myself.
Get some pics up and we should be able to help you out.
Cat
 
i handload centerfire, but no shotgun. i may find someone in the area though that could load up a bunch for me, just for fun. it would be cool to shoot this old stick! like i said, it sure has an early serial number.... no 958!

Oh. is there any value to it? here are some phone pics.

2hoin1e.jpg

w7d9h0.jpg

2dtbs5f.jpg

2w2r7sl.jpg
 
Last edited:
ginnz said:
i handload centerfire, but no shotgun. i may find someone in the area though that could load up a bunch for me, just for fun. it would be cool to shoot this old stick! like i said, it sure has an early serial number.... no 958!

Oh. is there any value to it? here are some phone pics.
Click to expand...

you don't need a press just get any old hull make sure it fits in the chamber to deprime it all you need is a piece of wood with a hole in it and a nail dump the powder charge in the shell(a black powder measure would be needed). take a nitro card and pout it on the hull pressing it in with a dowel(give the powder some compression) then a fiber wad pushed on top of that then you can use the bp measure to measure the shot(same setting as powder) and then a over shot card and a little glue to hold said over shot card in place once dry you can cut off the extra crimp.

star low with both powder and shot charges you don't want to hot rod it but for Damascus theres some thing you would have to do to make sure all the welds are still good cork off one end of the barrels place them in some sort of bucket and fill the barrel with rubbing alcohol if any is leaking out you know the barrels are not good at that point the gun is a wall hanger
 
ginnz said:
so, i take it, its prolly not worth anything?
Click to expand...

that would depend on condition any pitting on or in the barrels would make a damascus gun a non shooter. watch how the barrels are made to understand why it would make it not useable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7eacS2oDcs if any of the welds are affected by anything including pitting it could end up doing some damage
 
Value? Looks to be a quality gun in decent if not pristine condition. It certainly has some value, but it is difficult to appraise based on a few photos.
 
I see a big gap at the hinge which shouldn't be there, you'll need to find out what's causing that before you fire it. I can also see a lump of metal at the bottom of the hinge that also doesn't belong. Looks like it might be weld?? Forend wood has some chunks out of it.

It most likely has 2 1/2" chambers as well, so no 2 3/4" until you've determined chamber length. While you're doing that, have a good look at the bores and make sure there's no pitting or dents.

From what I can see, I'm guessing $150-200, maybe $250 on a really good day. I can't find much info about Henry Adkin other than that he existed. Gun probably dates from 1870's to 1880's.
 
.
Heed the cautions regarding the Damascus barrels. This shotgun was designed for Black Powder and as such, has the thickness of the barrels in a slightly different place than one designed for Smokeless Powder. This is because Black Powder had a different pressure curve when it is fired.

These guns were also chambered for the Roll Crimp type of shotshells. A popular 12 guage English shotshell at the time was the two inch shell so a 2 1/4 chamber would be about right to allow the paper crimp to unroll and not cause higher pressures.

Modern plastic shotshells will work and are easily made. If you have a vise, take a piece of 2x4 about 18 inches long. Drill a 3/16 hole in it, half way across the wide part (about 1 5/8 inch from the side). Make up a wood dowel about a foot long, drill a 3/16 hole in the center of one end, and insert a nail that fits. The nail has to be smaller diameter than the shotshell primer hole (.210 inch).

About 6 inches down from the 3/16 hole in the 2x4, take a 7/8 wood bit and drill a hole about 1/2 inch deep. This is for the base of the shell when you deprime it. In the center of the 7/8 inch hole you just drilled, you drill a 3/8 inch hole so that the primer will fall through it when it is deprimed. Make up a loose fitting dowel with a short headless nail in it to punch out the primer.

About 3 inches from the depriming hole, you drill another 7/8 inch hole with a wood bit, about 1/2 inch deep. A steel round blank disk will go into this hole. The diameter of this is not that important, and you could use a one inch or larger disk. You could even file a bit of a flat face on a Loonie and use it. The important thing is a FLAT surface, and not a Loonie as it is, because you do not want to set off a primer when you seat it. Make up another dowel about 6 inches long to loosely fit inside the shotshell. Drill a 5/16 hole, about 1/2 inch long in the center of the end that you insert, because some shotgun primers are longer than others, and this hole will allow them to seat fully. On the dowels that you make up for inserting inside the shotgun shells, make sure you round the end you insert, and make it an even smaller diameter at the bottom because plastic shotshells are thicker at the bottom and taper to thinner at the crimp end. This tool can also be used for seating the wads inside the shell.

On the end of your 2x4 that has the 3/16 hole, drill a 7/8 or 1 inch diameter hole with a wood bit, that is the length of the shotgun shell you wish to make. In this case 2 inches or 2 1/4 inches deep. Drop a shell that you wish to trim into the hole, and use a magic marker to make a line around the shotgun shell as you turn it. If you can find one of those fine bladed hard backed wood saws used for cabinet making then you could even cut the top off the shell at this point while it is in the hole. (Lee Valley Tools ?) Smooth the cut end with a small piece of sandpaper.

If not, then you can take the first round dowel with the nail in it, (the 12 inch one, remember,) slip it into a shotgun shell that you have marked the length on, and put the base end with the nail in it into the 3/8 hole that you first drilled into the 2x4. You did put the 2x4 into the vice standing up, didn't you? By using one of those handy little utility knives with the blade pressing onto the marked line, you rotate the dowel/shell combination and it will be cut to length.

Black Powder shotgun shells or muzzle loading shotguns are measured by VOLUME, not by WEIGHT. The same small dipper can be used for both powder and shot. There is a lot of good information available for the proper charges.

There you have it - REDNECK RELOADING at it's finest. Cost of the tools is maybe Five Bucks, (if you use a Loonie for a repriming base. Have fun, and most of all, DO NOT neglect to clean your barrels as soon as possible after firing them. Rust can easily form overnight. Use boiling hot water as this will not only neutralize the harmful salts, but heat up the barrels and help them dry faster.

And you will get the satisfaction of busting some clay birds, or dropping a Game Bird with an old historical firearm, in a cloud of smoke, with ammunition that you have made yourself.
 
The "lump of metal" is a protrusion that is supposed to be there, here is a better picture of it. I should take a bunch of better pics this afternoon, the wood is all pretty good for its age, and only the fore arm has cracks, but is still very solid. heres a pic of the "lump".

EDIT- LOL... I seen your value of 150.00 - 200.00 only now. That's kinda what I was thinking. I dunno, maybe its got more value than that? I guess I would have to bring it to a reputable dealer for appraisal.

nodm3s.jpg


Thanks for all the info so far guys, I'd like to be able to ascertain an approximate value to this shotgun, but with no info avail. on the maker, I don't know where to start? Anyone here have any Idea's regarding the approximate value of such an old piece? I'm intrigued by the very low serial number of it. It would seen that No.958 would be a super low serial?

nodm3s.jpg


9.3mauser said:
I see a big gap at the hinge which shouldn't be there, you'll need to find out what's causing that before you fire it. I can also see a lump of metal at the bottom of the hinge that also doesn't belong. Looks like it might be weld?? Forend wood has some chunks out of it.

It most likely has 2 1/2" chambers as well, so no 2 3/4" until you've determined chamber length. While you're doing that, have a good look at the bores and make sure there's no pitting or dents.


From what I can see, I'm guessing $150-200, maybe $250 on a really good day. I can't find much info about Henry Adkin other than that he existed. Gun probably dates from 1870's to 1880's.
Click to expand...
 
9.3mauser said:
I see a big gap at the hinge which shouldn't be there, you'll need to find out what's causing that before you fire it. I can also see a lump of metal at the bottom of the hinge that also doesn't belong. Looks like it might be weld??
Click to expand...

the gap between the for end iron and the front of the frame has no bearing on headspace or looseness of the barrels on the frame. Because the underlever is basically an interupted thread, when worn it can be rotated tight further. That puts the lever off center but it also brings the barrels down tight. (I suspect on this gun that is not a problem)

the lump you are referring to is just reinforcement of the for end iron for when the gun is opened. While on the subject of lumps, on a shotgun the lump refers to the tenon which extends below the barrel(s) into the frame for the locking mechanism to hold onto.

cheers mooncoon
 
Henry Adkin was on Offa Street in Bedford from 1849 to 1869. I can't find a record of his moving or changing the name to "and Sons". You have to consider the times when you look at the serial number. Take a look at the work that went into it and the time that would take with mid 1800's tools. Many small makers/retailers bought finished or near finished guns, but not all. There were some larger manufacturers, but most small provincial makers worked with one or two apprentices at most. 1000 double guns isn't a small number to an operation like that. Some pictures of the barrel flats and watertable so we could see the proofmarks would be nice. I like it and if the barrels are good and the action tight $250 would be a good deal for the buyer.
By the way, if a shotgun has 2" or 2 1/2" or 2 3/4" chambers that is the fired shell length when the roll crimp or star crimp is opened after firing, not before.
 
well, I cant find any proof marks on this shotgun anywhere. Just the makers name, and serial#.... I found out it was an early made shotgun of his, prolly made in 1850 or so. I'd think it would be worth more than 250.00! but, I don't know squat about these old things.

I bought some shotgun primers and blackpowder. I plan on handloading some shells and shooting this old thing! I just need a buddy to score me some wads and some shot....LOL.

and Im not sure how much blackpowder to load in the shell(s), I understand underloading can be dangerous, maybe not as dangerous as overloading, but dangerous non-the less.... Im still looking for more info on this thing. I can take more pictures if you guys think it would help? and where would I find the Proof Marks? (I dont know what you mean by the watertable, and barrel flats). the pice of metal between the barrels only says "H.Adkin Maker Bedford", and thats all I can see.

once again, any help is appreciated!
ginnz.
 
The gun has to have proof marks somewhere if it's an english gun or really any other european gun. It was the law unless it was snuck out the back door or the barrels were refinished at one time and the proof marks struck off. Are there no marks anywhere on the barrel flats or bottom side of the barrels or words such as "not for ball"? Value will not be that high in the present condition. I see the forearm is also cracked aside from worn checkering. How pitted are the bores internally?
 
ginnz said:
and Im not sure how much blackpowder to load in the shell(s), I understand underloading can be dangerous, maybe not as dangerous as overloading, but dangerous non-the less...
Click to expand...

I think you are confusing small loads of slow burning smokeless in large volume modern rifle cartridges. While there are many opinions about why it happens, one hears of occasional high pressure spikes under such conditions. As long as you are shooting black powder and around 3 drahms of 2F powder and 1 1/8 oz of lead shot, you should be relatively safe in the shooting the gun provided the barrel is not deeply pitted. 1 drahm is 27 grains. I use lubed muzzle loading cushion wads for by cushion wad when loading with black powder
I would suggest tying the gun to a rubber car tire and pull the trigger with a string before shooting from the shoulder. Use two wraps of light rope around the wrist and then around the tire. If you go through the trigger guard, there is a good chance it will cut the light rope (I have found :>( )

cheers mooncoon
 
gunsaholic said:
The gun has to have proof marks somewhere if it's an english gun or really any other european gun. It was the law unless it was snuck out the back door or the barrels were refinished at one time and the proof marks struck off. Are there no marks anywhere on the barrel flats or bottom side of the barrels or words such as "not for ball"? Value will not be that high in the present condition. I see the forearm is also cracked aside from worn checkering. How pitted are the bores internally?
Click to expand...

yeah, the checkering is worn, but heck, its around 150 years old! and the cracked forearm is the only damage..... I will look again very closely for any more markings.

yeah, i open the lock and drop the barrels, and there is a marking on the steel there, looks like two swords crossed with a symbol on each side of some sort. Ill have to get a magnifying glass and see what they look like better.

they are two swords with a crown on one side, and a v on the other.....
 
Last edited:
ginnz said:
.. I will look again very closely for any more markings.
there is a marking on the steel there, looks like two swords crossed with a symbol on each side of some sort.

they are two swords with a crown on one side, and a v on the other.....
Click to expand...

that sounds like Birmingham proofs and perhaps they were just lightly struck

cheers mooncoon
 
Yup, the crossed parts of the stamp are actually maces, and with the crown above and the V below that is the Birmingham proof house view mark. You'll probably have to take off the barrels to see more. That flat pin going sideways through the forearm wood pushes out. It should come out with a few light taps of a piece of wood or brass. When that is out the wood will separate from the barrels. Open the action and the barrels will tip off. Reverse that to put it back together. You can see the barrel flats then. It is the flat part of the bottom of the barrels at the chambers. Most of the proof marks will be there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom