Old rifle from England

[General Ripper]

This rifle came up the Red River to Winnipeg around 1870. It was owned by my great grandfather. The only markings are "Terrys Patent 52 Bore" on the top of the barrel and 761c behind the trigger guard. It is a breech loader but uses a percussion cap. It is rifled and has an elevated/adjustable rear site to 900 yards. I found some information about Calisher and Terry gunsmiths in England but I would really like to know more about the gun, what type of ammo it used and what it looked like.....paper cartridge that is torn open? Thanks

John


http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r82/General_Ripper/oldrifle_15.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r82/General_Ripper/oldrifle_14.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r82/General_Ripper/oldrifle_13.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r82/General_Ripper/oldrifle_11.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r82/General_Ripper/oldrifle_10.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r82/General_Ripper/oldrifle_9.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r82/General_Ripper/oldrifle_8.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r82/General_Ripper/oldrifle_4.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r82/General_Ripper/oldrifle_3.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r82/General_Ripper/oldrifle.jpg

 

[chasseur]

HI
Civil war collectors would give their left arm for that gun as JEB Stuart carried one during his carreer fighting for the South.

 

[Steppenwolf]

Great photos and a fine rifle. Nice to see it stay with your family. Information is hard to find about these rifles. The only reference I can find is although it is a marked 52 bore it is .54cal. Denner has a Calisher & Terry shotgun for $3500. http://www.denner.ca/weapons/longguns/index.html Here are two photos of the carbine.

 

[SDC]

Winant's "Early Percussion Firearms" says that these were used with paper cartridges that had a lubed felt wad at the bottom of the cartridge, and that wad stayed in the chamber to lubricate (and be forced out by) the next shot; the nipple is located so that the powder-charge starts burning in the middle, forcing the wad back and the bullet forward.

 

[Steppenwolf]

SDC, Basically the same way a Westley Richards "Monkey Tail" cartridge works.

 

[General Ripper]

Many thanks. So did they have to tear open the paper cartridge or did the flash burn through? How were these cartridges stored and carried?

John

 

[Steppenwolf]

IIRC these cartridges were fragile and each cartridge was carried in a heavy paper cover that was removed before loading. The musket cap has a lot of flash and the paper of the inner cartridge was flammable. They were most likely carried in a cartridge box.

Cartridge

Cartridge Box, this is an Enfield style box with tin inserts.

 

[mooncoon]

Taken from page 120 and 121 of "The Rifle" by Hans Busk, 1862
This rifle in some respects externally resembles Prince's, but the principles in either case are essentially distinct. (snip) In Terry's the barrel is fixed and the admission of the cartridge is effected through an opening at the base of the breech. Above the lock, and flush with the barrel, is a lever,which being raised and drawn with a half-turn to the rear, give immediate access to the receptacle for the charge. A thick felt wad, saturated with grease, is fixed to the bottom of the cartridge, for the purpose of lubricating the barrel after each discharge. The wad, before the ignition of the powder, rests against the end of a small cylinder which projects into the barrel, and thus serves to break the recoil. I have not had many opportunities for judging of this gun, which possibly may admit of further improvement. A carbine on this construction (.577 bore), send to me for trial, did not load with the same facility as one of Princes's rifles, nor was its accuracy of fire at all comparable to that of the latter weapon. (snip)
A breach loading rifle carbine, capable of being converted in a moment into a pistol, the invention of Mr. Terry, of Birmingham, was tried on board her Majesty's ship Excellent, under the superintendence of Capt. Hewlett, C.B.; from May 10 until the end of the last July (1858), 1800 rounds were fired from it with unprecedented accuracy at various ranges, and that too without cleaning the weapon, which, notwithstanding, gave no recoil. (snip)
The rifle missed fire but twice in the 1800 rounds, and, whether discharged by officer or man, 86 per cent. were "hits" (snip)
Its advantage over the old pieces are, three pounds less in weight, and five shots to one in time of firing, with a tremendous range and yet without any necessity for cleaning out, under about a couple of thousand rounds.
------------------------
I would also mention that I was quite pleasantly surprised when shooting Steppenwolf's monkeytail, that the greased wads seal the bore surprisingly well. Also worth noting that the British Single Shot Rifle, in one of its volumes mentioned that the monkeytail required a special extra hot cap to fire dependably and I suspect the same thing may have been true for Terry's rifle. Unlike a Sharp's carbine which cuts through the paper cartridge to expose the powder, both Terry's and Westley Richards guns the flash must burn through the nitrated paper.

cheers mooncoon

 

[Steppenwolf]

As soon as I saw this thread I knew MC would have infomation about this beasty Belly Dancer and I are going to the range to shoot my "Westley Richards Capping Breech Loading Rifle", what a pretentious rifle name eh!

 

[General Ripper]

Thank you for the info. Do you think I could get/make ammo and shoot this rifle? After a gunsmith checks it out.

John

 

[GrantR]

Very nice rifle, GR!

Although the military Calisher & Terry rifles/carbines were .54 caliber, yours is a sporting rifle built with that action, and should be about .44 caliber, based on the "52 Bore" marking.

As you may be aware, in the old British system for denoting bore diameter of firearms, the "bore number" (in the case of your rifle "52") denotes the number of pure lead round balls exactly fitting that bore equalling one pound in weight. I don't have a full chart handy, but "52 Bore" would be just under .44 caliber. The .54 caliber military carbine, on the other hand, was referred to as 30 Bore. (This is essentially the same system as still used to indicate shotgun bore size - i.e. "12 gauge" is the same thing as "12 bore".)

It should be entirely possible to shoot your rifle if it is in sound condition - there are lots of folks shooting both original and reproduction "capping breechloaders" (the general term for this type of firearm), so there should be plenty of information and help available online.

It would be necessary to use black powder loads, of course - if you are not familiar with black powder, be sure to learn about the very corrosive effects of BP fouling, and the proper techniques for cleaning and care, by means of which any damage can be entirely avoided. It would be a shame to ruin such a beautiful old heirloom!

Keep us posted!

 

[General Ripper]

Thanks Grant. Very useful info and an interesting web site!

John