Old School Long Range Fun? Looking for Opinions and Insights

Devlin

Devlin

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Evening folks,


I've been a bit of a trip through an internet rabbit hole that ranges from long range black powder shooting to shooting Sharps rifles at long range on steel plates. This seems very intriguing to me and I do shoot what I'll call traditional long range (F class) on a square range, this game feels like a continual arms race and I'm questioning my dedication to it. Thinking of changing things up and giving this path a shot.

Looking for opinions or insights from anyone who has some mileage in this style of shooting, as I am just learning about it and am considering shifting gears in this direction. Would appreciate any comments or input you may have, the thought of making hits with an older style of gun like this is appealing but am not 100% sold just yet on it. Maybe I've been watching too many westerns or not enough perhaps!



Sagebrush Longshots

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Quigley Down Under

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For the last few years I've been shooting NRA black powder target rifle in a few places in the states ( Wyoming, Colorado, and Arizona ). Midrange is either 200/300/600, or 300/500,600, and long range is 800,900,1000. There are a couple of 1000 yard only matches. I've also been shooting an annual black powder silhouette match here in Kamloops B.C.

It isn't too much of an equipment race for sure as things are pretty constant that way. Equipment is not cheap. I started off with a number of rifles and went down the road buying rifles of different manufacturers and custom chambers etc. After attending a number of matches it was pretty clear that there are two types of rifles that show up the most in the winners circle. Custom build rifles by a handful of really talented smiths in America, or the Shiloh Sharps as it comes from the factory. Things are a little different in the BP silhouette world, but in BP target rifle that pretty much sums it up.

The only downside for most people is the need to cast your own bullets. I don't mind that part. I suppose the other downside is that almost all of the matches are in America.

I do have more fun shooting these rifles than anything else. The accuracy is a lot better than what most expect, but not close to top of the line modern equipment of course. To get match winning accuracy requires a lot of trigger time and a fair bit of load time. The year I shot that target I burned through 50lb of powder and maybe 200-300 lbs of bullet alloy :)

Here is a shot plot of my best 1000 yard target to date:

ShotPlot-1000-small.jpg


This was shot with a Sharps 1878 Borchardt in .45-90 at the Ben Avery range in Phoenix. The rifle is built on an original (140 year old) action, but of course has a new barrel and stock. The top shot was not plotted as it was the last one in the string and we forgot. It was an 8 somewhere. A new Shiloh Sharps in .45-90 or .45-100 will be just as accurate. I haven't seen any other brands do as well in Long Range yet though.

The best guys can keep all shots in the black at 1000 unless conditions are really crazy. I can't do that consistently yet.

I love shooting BPTR. I just wish that I didn't have to drive so far to do it.

Chris.
 
That is some outstanding shooting sir! I am interested in the Sharps as a rifle but it seems like you either need to find one used or have it imported through the US perhaps? i've not seen any at Canadian retailers and a lot of googling to find a Canadian source hasn't turned up much.

I was leaning towards 45-70 chambering as the access to factory ammo is appealing as a rookie to this world. I am an experienced reloader in the smokeless precision world but have no familiarity with working with Black Powder offerings.

I believe from the videos I've seen that some folks also run smokeless powder through these rifles but please correct me if I am mistaken on that.

Appreciate your feedback here, lots to learn.
 
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My competition rifles are all Shiloh Sharps rifles that I imported, mostly using Prophet River. You can sometimes find them for sale used on the EE, or in local gun shops. My first one was bought used locally. A lot of people here in Canada will try to sell them for more than their original price. The easiest way is to find a used one in America and get Prophet River to import it.

The things I've learned, and I have learned the hard way, is to buy the best stuff you can afford. By buying a used Shiloh with Montana Vintage Arms (MVA) sights, you will be competitive right out of the box. You want the "Soule" style sight for making fast and repeatable windage changes. There are a lot of cheaper sights around and they are fine for informal shooting, but I wouldn't use them for anything else.

The .45-70 is not ideal for long range, but it is used regularly by some pretty seriously skilled shooters. To make it to 1000 yards you want to use heavy charges and bullets that seat way out of the case. Swiss FFFg seems the best for that purpose. .45-90 is easier for long range as you will find it easier to make a load with lower vertical dispersion which is super important.

I've used all of the powders out there, and a lot that are no longer available. Swiss is the best by far. There are a few places to get it in Canada. Olde Eynsford is second best but close, and the rest is at the bottom.

You also want a pistol grip stock with as little drop as possible. If you want to shoot silhouettes you want the rifle to have a heavy barrel and as close to 12 lbs 2 oz as possible. For scoped silhouette you can go up to 15 lbs. Mid and Long Range paper matches go to 15 lbs, scoped or not. Heavy is good.

If you do get into it, and start looking for a Shiloh, you want a Long Range Express, or Sporter #1. These have the best stock configuration.

Both 1-18 and 1-16 twists are competitive. Lot of people have gone to 1:16 in the last few years but I don't think the difference is huge. For bullets, the most common thing is the Buffalo Arms Money bullet. It used to be the Creedmoor bullet but they have a lower BC. The Money bullet has basically the same nose as some of the old ( 1870s-1880's ) competition bullets. They generally want to be cast in 16:1 alloy. The Buffalo Arms 458535M bullet will shoot competitively in pretty much all of my rifles. It's a .458" bullet that weighs a little less than 535 grains. For lubricant don't screw around with your own recipies. There are two lubes in the states that work well. SPG and DGL. I use DGL as it's better in hot weather.

Another thing. Paper patched bullets are very cool, but get a little success under your belt before messing with them. 99% of the time a good shooter with grease grooved bullets will beat a shooter with paper patched bullets. This is not because paper patched bullets are not as accurate, but because paper patched bullets are EXTREMELY sensitive to bore condition. Even the tiniest bit of fouling left in the bore will hurt your scores. But, they are the historically correct way of shooting these rifles. It's just that the modern time limits in NRA matches put the paper patched bullet shooter at a disadvantage.

That's a lot of what I've learned competing in these matches.

Chris.
 
Oh, actually there is one more rifle I'd consider. The Browning/Winchester BPCR rifles in .45-70. I owned one for a few years. Cheaper than the Shiloh and as accurate. The rear sights that come with them are not as good as the MVA ones.

There are only 2 things I didn't like about the rifle.
1) light weight, maybe a little over 11lbs. A little too light for a long range loads IMO but fine for silhouette.
2) super hard to disassemble for cleaning. This was the only reason I sold mine.

Chris.
 
Cheers thanks for all the replies so far guys, I am in Kitchener, Ontario and our range that I have regular access to tops out at 300 yards. Heading further north I can get out to a 1000 yards safely on crown land and some other ranges. Prophet River and Clay are gems to deal with and I have had great experiences in dealing with them, they have some very nice Shiloh's on the site in the consignment section now but are fairly expensive.

What's the going rate for a good quality shooter to get into this game?

I assume for the larger calibres like 45-90 and 45-110 that you folks are hand-loading exclusively?
 
Go for the .45-90 (or the .45-100 if you can handle long strings of fire with heavy recoil ). Anything bigger than a .45-90 is more than most people can handle for shooting prone all day. I do know some people doing extremely well with the .45-100 however. I have one and it's good to shoot, but weighs exactly 15 lbs. The same goes for the .45-110. It wants to be really heavy. Almost everyone uses the .45-90 though to be honest. The recoil will be more than a .308 by a fair margin, but not snappy, more of a shotgun like shove.

I would expect to pay $2500-$3000 for a good used Shiloh. If you go with the Winchester/Browning 1885 it'll be more like $1500 but you might want to replace the rear sight after a year or two of shooting. I know a few guys who bought Browning 1885's and rebarreled them to bring the weight up. They can shoot extremely well.

Chris.
 
You are also lucky to live not too far from the Connaught range. That's about the only place I know of in Canada to shoot black powder target rifle. There is a big match there that attracts some serious talent. If you want to get ahold of someone who shoots there, go to the Shiloh forum and send a message to a guy who goes by "Etienne Brule".


Chris.
 
gunlaker said:
You are also lucky to live not too far from the Connaught range. That's about the only place I know of in Canada to shoot black powder target rifle. There is a big match there that attracts some serious talent. If you want to get ahold of someone who shoots there, go to the Shiloh forum and send a message to a guy who goes by "Etienne Brule".


Chris.
Click to expand...

I will do some searching on that, not familiar with the Shiloh forum. Looks like the DCRA have some info on the Black Powder program.
 
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