old sotguns and new shells?
- Thread starter gfgunner
- Start date
The present concern is the use of steel in a gun designed for lead. If the gun is really old the concern may be using smokeless powder in a gun designed for black powder. What is the make model of the gun you are concerned about. I am sure that CGN will have an answer for you.
... unless you have the chokes reamed.
There's also a concern with older Damascus or laminated steel strips barrels. These should'NT be attempted to be fired with modern shotshells.
In general, if using the standard velocity (low pressure) shotshells, there should be no problems.
But before attempting to fire an old shotgun, make sure it is chambered for the shell you want to shoot in it. Lots of very old (and not-so old European) shotguns are made for 2 1/2" (65mm) shell, and you should not attempt shooting 2 3/4" in it. BTW, the 2 3/4 will chamber very well in a 2 1/2" chamber, so, if in doubt, ask a competent gunsmith.
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Did you leave out a word here?
They may be a good deal if they will allow ammo suitable for your hunting situation. I am not sure if you are looking at older guns or just used guns?
Check to see if the gun has choke tubes. If so read the tubes to see if they are suitable for steel shot. In general, you will need a gun suitable for steel to hunt migratory birds. If the gun does not have tubes, it may be suitable for lead shot or may be altered for steel shot. Depending on the hunting regulations where you hunt, you may be allowed to hunt upland birds with lead. I think that most of us will need more information on your prespective purchase before we can advise.
It's all about pressure.
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) was founded in 1926 and set the standards for allowable pressures in sporting ammo. Guns made in North America since about 1930 have adhered to these standards and if in good shape should be safe to shoot with modern ammo from the point of view of pressures generated. Chamber length and hard (steel) shot are two factors which need to be considered before shooting, but a SAAMI spec gun should survive the pressures generated by modern ammo (given the correct chamber length).
Know the chamber length of your gun! 12 gauge guns have been made in various lengths, from 2 inch to 3 1/2 inch, both in North America and Europe. The chamber is the length of the FIRED shell, so yes, a 2 3/4 inch shell WILL fit into a 2 1/2 inch chamber. That doesn't mean it is good to shoot. If you don't know, measure.
With shotguns made prior to SAAMI, each manufacturer made decisions as to what pressure levels their guns were designed for. As a rule of thumb one should not use modern ammo in these guns. There are exceptions, but you had best know what you are doing.
Guns made in Britain and Europe are a different story. Today there is the C.I.P., the euro equivalent of SAAMI, but for most of history it was the manufacturer and the proof house which set the pressure limits, and they were different for different guns. For instance, an English 12 gauge could be proven for a 1 1/8th ounce load or for a 1 1/4 oz. load. Those loads had different peak pressures and were subjected to different proof loads. The proof marks were then stamped on the gun, and the owner is supposed to adhere to those loads. This is only valid so long as the gun is still in proof, i.e. the bores have not been honed out too far, or the chambers lengthened, or deeper pits have formed.
In general the pressures generated by the European loads are less than SAAMI spec. Today, the difference between SAAMI and C.I.P is negligible, but for guns built before 1950 the proof marks should be carefully examined and appropriate loads chosen. Remchester ammo is rarely the best choice.
GameBore (distributed in Canada by Kent) produces a line of ammo specifically meant for shooting these lower pressure guns. Many recipes exist for the handloader as well.
Promo loads from Can Tire or Wal Mort can exhibit the highest pressures of all. To keep costs down, these loads use smaller amounts of fast burning powder. This produces a short, sharp spike in pressure. Not what you want in an older gun.
Black powder burns very slowly compared to smokeless - so slowly that the 4 millisecond window of my pressure gauge cannot record all of it. Barrels made for black powder should NOT be used with modern ammo for fear of losing body parts! There do exist, however, a number of Damascus barreled guns which were proven or re-proven for smokeless powder. These can sometimes (if still in proof condition) be shot with low pressure smokeless loads. Do not do this without intimate knowledge of the barrels, the pressures they were proven for, and the pressures generated by the ammo. In these cases, it is not just the peak pressure but the total pressure curve which is important.
In summary;
1) If you want to use modern ammo, buy a modern (SAAMI spec) gun. Beware of issues with steel shot (wall thickness, chokes).
2) If you want to shoot older American or European guns, buy or make low pressure ammo. Avoid promo loads. Know the condition of your gun.
3) If you want to shoot guns made prior to WWI, especially Damascus, twist or laminated barrel guns, get knowledgeable, buy some measuring tools, hand load and be intimately familiar with the construction and condition of your gun.
Note: Velocity, high or low brass shells and other "folk lore" indicators have NO RELATION to the pressures generated by any given load. In addition, it is very rare for a manufacturer to tell you the pressure generated by a load. As an example, a 2 1/2 inch load I use and the Winchester 2 3/4" promo load (lead #7 1/2 shot, the 4 boxes to a pack stuff) both produce velocities in the 1200 fps range. The Winchester load has a peak pressure over 3900 psi higher.
Shooting older shotguns is very rewarding and enjoyable. In my opinion some of the best shotguns ever made were produced between about 1885 and 1920. It is not fun if you blow your fingers or face off. Don't guess, either learn for yourself or get the opinion of a knowledgeable gunsmith. Spend the time or money to obtain the appropriate loads and be sure the gun is safe to shoot. Then go out and have fun!
Sharptail
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) was founded in 1926 and set the standards for allowable pressures in sporting ammo. Guns made in North America since about 1930 have adhered to these standards and if in good shape should be safe to shoot with modern ammo from the point of view of pressures generated. Chamber length and hard (steel) shot are two factors which need to be considered before shooting, but a SAAMI spec gun should survive the pressures generated by modern ammo (given the correct chamber length).
Know the chamber length of your gun! 12 gauge guns have been made in various lengths, from 2 inch to 3 1/2 inch, both in North America and Europe. The chamber is the length of the FIRED shell, so yes, a 2 3/4 inch shell WILL fit into a 2 1/2 inch chamber. That doesn't mean it is good to shoot. If you don't know, measure.
With shotguns made prior to SAAMI, each manufacturer made decisions as to what pressure levels their guns were designed for. As a rule of thumb one should not use modern ammo in these guns. There are exceptions, but you had best know what you are doing.
Guns made in Britain and Europe are a different story. Today there is the C.I.P., the euro equivalent of SAAMI, but for most of history it was the manufacturer and the proof house which set the pressure limits, and they were different for different guns. For instance, an English 12 gauge could be proven for a 1 1/8th ounce load or for a 1 1/4 oz. load. Those loads had different peak pressures and were subjected to different proof loads. The proof marks were then stamped on the gun, and the owner is supposed to adhere to those loads. This is only valid so long as the gun is still in proof, i.e. the bores have not been honed out too far, or the chambers lengthened, or deeper pits have formed.
In general the pressures generated by the European loads are less than SAAMI spec. Today, the difference between SAAMI and C.I.P is negligible, but for guns built before 1950 the proof marks should be carefully examined and appropriate loads chosen. Remchester ammo is rarely the best choice.
GameBore (distributed in Canada by Kent) produces a line of ammo specifically meant for shooting these lower pressure guns. Many recipes exist for the handloader as well.
Promo loads from Can Tire or Wal Mort can exhibit the highest pressures of all. To keep costs down, these loads use smaller amounts of fast burning powder. This produces a short, sharp spike in pressure. Not what you want in an older gun.
Black powder burns very slowly compared to smokeless - so slowly that the 4 millisecond window of my pressure gauge cannot record all of it. Barrels made for black powder should NOT be used with modern ammo for fear of losing body parts! There do exist, however, a number of Damascus barreled guns which were proven or re-proven for smokeless powder. These can sometimes (if still in proof condition) be shot with low pressure smokeless loads. Do not do this without intimate knowledge of the barrels, the pressures they were proven for, and the pressures generated by the ammo. In these cases, it is not just the peak pressure but the total pressure curve which is important.
In summary;
1) If you want to use modern ammo, buy a modern (SAAMI spec) gun. Beware of issues with steel shot (wall thickness, chokes).
2) If you want to shoot older American or European guns, buy or make low pressure ammo. Avoid promo loads. Know the condition of your gun.
3) If you want to shoot guns made prior to WWI, especially Damascus, twist or laminated barrel guns, get knowledgeable, buy some measuring tools, hand load and be intimately familiar with the construction and condition of your gun.
Note: Velocity, high or low brass shells and other "folk lore" indicators have NO RELATION to the pressures generated by any given load. In addition, it is very rare for a manufacturer to tell you the pressure generated by a load. As an example, a 2 1/2 inch load I use and the Winchester 2 3/4" promo load (lead #7 1/2 shot, the 4 boxes to a pack stuff) both produce velocities in the 1200 fps range. The Winchester load has a peak pressure over 3900 psi higher.
Shooting older shotguns is very rewarding and enjoyable. In my opinion some of the best shotguns ever made were produced between about 1885 and 1920. It is not fun if you blow your fingers or face off. Don't guess, either learn for yourself or get the opinion of a knowledgeable gunsmith. Spend the time or money to obtain the appropriate loads and be sure the gun is safe to shoot. Then go out and have fun!
Sharptail
European guns, in general, except for very few countries (wich, most of the time, are/were copying their own standards from CIP), follows a very strict agenda since BEFORE ANSI/SAAMI saw light. The European guns/shotguns had/have a much more uniform testing procedure than those made in the USA or Canada (the difference being that older Canadian-made firearms were, most of the time, issued under the British Standards, wich were quite equivalents to those used by Liege).
Actually, like many other things, SAAMI is a copy of what already existed in the old world. CIP was created in 1914, but the "Banc D'Epreuve de Liege" was much older than that, it was created May 10th, 1672 and since then have set the whole Europe's standards.
Also, SAAMI just starts to standardize from CUP to Piezo transducers (PSI) while CIP have finished that in 2001.
It's also very difficult to say wich, from SAAMI or CIP have the higher total pressures because the SAAMI system does not use the same standards for say, the pressure transducer emplacement.
NATO (so, the US Army) use the same as CIP (actually, CIP sets all the acceptance specifications of the NATO firearms / ammunition).
CIP's standard, for a 12- 2 3/4" is 740 bar (10 730 PSI) while the 3" and 3 1/2" are standardized to 1050 bar (15 225 PSI). SAAMI says all but the 3 1/2" shall be at the 11 500 PSI level rating while only the 3 1/2" is rated for 14 000 PSI.
The US Army, in their "Small Calibers, US Army tm43-0001-27" standards describe the M162 12 Ga 2 3/4" as being rated for 11 000 PSI (not 11 500 like SAAMI).
As one can see, there are differences in the numbers, mainly because SAAMI does not want to regulate their standards with those virtually universal (exept in the USA-Canada) used CIP/NATO.
Actually, like many other things, SAAMI is a copy of what already existed in the old world. CIP was created in 1914, but the "Banc D'Epreuve de Liege" was much older than that, it was created May 10th, 1672 and since then have set the whole Europe's standards.
Also, SAAMI just starts to standardize from CUP to Piezo transducers (PSI) while CIP have finished that in 2001.
It's also very difficult to say wich, from SAAMI or CIP have the higher total pressures because the SAAMI system does not use the same standards for say, the pressure transducer emplacement.
NATO (so, the US Army) use the same as CIP (actually, CIP sets all the acceptance specifications of the NATO firearms / ammunition).
CIP's standard, for a 12- 2 3/4" is 740 bar (10 730 PSI) while the 3" and 3 1/2" are standardized to 1050 bar (15 225 PSI). SAAMI says all but the 3 1/2" shall be at the 11 500 PSI level rating while only the 3 1/2" is rated for 14 000 PSI.
The US Army, in their "Small Calibers, US Army tm43-0001-27" standards describe the M162 12 Ga 2 3/4" as being rated for 11 000 PSI (not 11 500 like SAAMI).
As one can see, there are differences in the numbers, mainly because SAAMI does not want to regulate their standards with those virtually universal (exept in the USA-Canada) used CIP/NATO.
Ahsan Ahmed
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
gfgunner - Welcome!
You haven't really specified as to what type of shotgun(s) you have been looking at and/or what action type you had in mind.
Moreover, you haven't talked about what you maybe using that shotgun for i.e. Hunting, Clay shooting etc and some idea regarding your budget.
Information as such, will assist to generate more appropriate recommendations, inputs etc from this Forum.
Since your question referred to "older guns/modern shells" - I assume that you may likely be considering very old sxs guns? If so, may I suggest that you also look at a new or used (late model) Baikal. Those guns are mechanically very well made and reasonably priced.
Consequently, you won't have to worry about using modern cartridges (including steel shot) + the late models come with screw-in chokes that would enable you to do a variety of shooting.
The above fellows make some good points about old side /side guns.
But if you mean old pump shot guns like a ithica model 37,
winchester model 12 or 1200 or and old savage 500 or the like,
they are quite safe with 2 3/4" steel shot. ( also I almost forgot Rem 870)
If you want to shoot steel shot,you need to have the standard
full choke opened up to mod and have the gun checked out by a
gunsmith; which would be a good idea anyway if you are new at this.
An older Ithica 37 or Winchester model 12 would be my first choice.
They will last a life time if looked after.
If you are talking old side/sides that if a different ball game and
as claybuster can tell you , can get you hooked and into big money.
If we knew what you wanted it for ,it would help.
M. in Sk.
