Old triangle shaped bayonet questions

[Threemorewishes]

I'm trying to gather information on an old bayonet that is triangular in shape, has very few markings and comes with a scabbard. The socket is stamped with G T and a 2 over 63. The blade has an E over a crown over the number 30.

The scabbard hardware is brass but has no markings, The leather has a few markings that are indecipherable and one stamping of an arrow over the letters WD. I was told the arrow over the WD might be the maker mark for "Woolley and Deakin".

I would like to know the approximate value, age of manufacture, what rifle it's for and possibly who would have used it.

Thanks for any information you can provide.

Threemorewishes

The bayonet...

The only marks on the blade...

The socket...

The top brass lug...

The bottom brass finial...

The arrow and WD marking on the scabbard...

 

[Claven2]

Looks like a patter 1853 baynoet. They were used on the Enfield musket and the snider-enfield.

 

[bush1]

I have 2 of these identical to yours, one with a scabbard and one without. They both fit my 1859 and 1863 Enfield Sniders. I have a 1873 Sargent model 2 band Snider that has a larger OD barrel and neither of mine fit it.

Can you measure the ID of your bayonet and then I could tell you if it would fit a 3 band Snider.

I would suggest a value of $150 - $200 but I’ve seen them valued more in the US.

 

[Threemorewishes]

Looks like a patter 1853 baynoet. They were used on the Enfield musket and the snider-enfield.

I have 2 of these identical to yours, one with a scabbard and one without. They both fit my 1859 and 1863 Enfield Sniders. I have a 1873 Sargent model 2 band Snider that has a larger OD barrel and neither of mine fit it.

Can you measure the ID of your bayonet and then I could tell you if it would fit a 3 band Snider.

I would suggest a value of $150 - $200 but I’ve seen them valued more in the US.

Thanks for the information.

The ID of the socket is 0.796"

 

[jtaylor]

Hi TMW. Its a British Pattern 1853 socket bayonet that was adopted for the P53 rifled musket. This bayonet is of late manufacture
near 1866 and came over with the thousands of Snider Enfield long rifles that was a gift by Queen Victoria to our new country. Condition
is only about good. The bayonet was made at Enfield and the WD under a broad arrow on the scabbard represents British War Department
acceptance. Its a common bayonet worth about $100. JOHN

 

[bush1]

Thanks for the information.

The ID of the socket is 0.796"

Yep, that’s my ID as well on mine. They are for an Enfield Snider or as Claven correctly called it an 1853 Pattern as they were originally muzzle loaders before being converted.

 

[Sherbrooke]

Canadian Militia units were issued Snider-Enfields from about 1866 into the 1890's.
The regimental markings on triangular or socket bayonets is supposedly across the blade close to the shoulder. That's according to this site : http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/brit_bayo.html#markings-ca
The 30 could be for the 30th Wellington Battalion of Rifles.

More info here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/bri...nteer-militia-units-formed-c-t7472.html#p7129

 

[jtaylor]

Hi Sherbrooke. You are incorrect. Regimental markings almost never appear on the face of the blade at the shoulder. Canadian markings
almost always appear on the socket in larger numbers than illustrated in the pic. That is an enfield inspection or viewers mark exactly where it should be on the top face. Please don't believe everything you read on some of these web sights. Just go to any gun show and ask any Brit
military collector who will back up my statements. If you give me your e-mail I can send you many pics to illustrate this point. Also Canada received their first Snider rifles in 1867. The Snider bayonet is the most common socket bayonet in Canada. JOHN

 

[Sherbrooke]

Hi Sherbrooke. You are incorrect. Regimental markings almost never appear on the face of the blade at the shoulder. Canadian markings
almost always appear on the socket in larger numbers than illustrated in the pic. That is an enfield inspection or viewers mark exactly where it should be on the top face. Please don't believe everything you read on some of these web sights. Just go to any gun show and ask any Brit
military collector who will back up my statements. If you give me your e-mail I can send you many pics to illustrate this point. Also Canada received their first Snider rifles in 1867. The Snider bayonet is the most common socket bayonet in Canada. JOHN

Right.
Or...rather, the linked first website is incorrect Thank you for that, I'd love to see your pics.
Should have went with my gut, I believed the socket was where the proper regimental markings were, but deferred to "experts".
Now that I am back home and have had a look at my P-1853 Bayonet, the same 'E 30" is on the shoulder.
The socket has 58 over 146, the 146 I assume is the "stand" or Rack # similar to how the rifles are numbered, and the 58 must indicate it was from
the 58th Battalion of infantry - the Sherbrooke Hussars (Nice name )

That makes sense as the Snider Enfield it came with, has 51 on the brass butt plate above the rack # which indicates that it saw service with the 51st Battalion, Hemmingford Rangers.

Sherbrooke Quebec and Hemmingford Quebec are only 180 kilometres apart so that seems likely that the socket numerals are correct.

OP- the 2 on your socket may indicate 2nd Battalion, Queen's Own Rifles based out of Toronto.

 

[JP]

58th Compton Battalion of Infantry, when the Snider-Enfield rifles were in service.

 

[bush1]

Now that there’s a few Snider knowledgeable types in this thread, I’ll go ahead with a question.

I have a 2 band Sargent model 1870’s with a larger OD barrel than the regular 3 band MkII and MkIII Sniders. The regular bayonets won’t fit but there is a rectangular knob on he side of the barrel near the muzzle and I presume that’s for a bayonet. I’ve done some searching for details on this but can’t find anything. Any ideas.?

 

[Sherbrooke]

Now that there’s a few Snider knowledgeable types in this thread, I’ll go ahead with a question.

I have a 2 band Sargent model 1870’s with a larger OD barrel than the regular 3 band MkII and MkIII Sniders. The regular bayonets won’t fit but there is a rectangular knob on he side of the barrel near the muzzle and I presume that’s for a bayonet. I’ve done some searching for details on this but can’t find anything. Any ideas.?

The curved "Yataghan" sword bayonets are meant for the P-60 and P-61 Snider short Rifles as seen here on the excellent YouTube channel "British Muzzleloaders"
(I will try to "embed" the video when I have a bit more time.)
https://youtu.be/oJp2q_HWPF8


More info here : https://www.forgottenweapons.com/forgotten-weapons-short-yataghan-bayonets/

 

[pcvando]

Now that there’s a few Snider knowledgeable types in this thread, I’ll go ahead with a question.

I have a 2 band Sargent model 1870’s with a larger OD barrel than the regular 3 band MkII and MkIII Sniders. The regular bayonets won’t fit but there is a rectangular knob on he side of the barrel near the muzzle and I presume that’s for a bayonet. I’ve done some searching for details on this but can’t find anything. Any ideas.?

What Sherbrooke said. Sgt's Pattern Sniders are not meant to take a socket bayo, rather the Yataghan sword models.

 

[Threemorewishes]

Hi TMW. Its a British Pattern 1853 socket bayonet that was adopted for the P53 rifled musket. This bayonet is of late manufacture
near 1866 and came over with the thousands of Snider Enfield long rifles that was a gift by Queen Victoria to our new country. Condition
is only about good. The bayonet was made at Enfield and the WD under a broad arrow on the scabbard represents British War Department
acceptance. Its a common bayonet worth about $100. JOHN

Yep, that’s my ID as well on mine. They are for an Enfield Snider or as Claven correctly called it an 1853 Pattern as they were originally muzzle loaders before being converted.

Canadian Militia units were issued Snider-Enfields from about 1866 into the 1890's.
The regimental markings on triangular or socket bayonets is supposedly across the blade close to the shoulder. That's according to this site : http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/brit_bayo.html#markings-ca
The 30 could be for the 30th Wellington Battalion of Rifles.

More info here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/bri...nteer-militia-units-formed-c-t7472.html#p7129

Hi Sherbrooke. You are incorrect. Regimental markings almost never appear on the face of the blade at the shoulder. Canadian markings
almost always appear on the socket in larger numbers than illustrated in the pic. That is an enfield inspection or viewers mark exactly where it should be on the top face. Please don't believe everything you read on some of these web sights. Just go to any gun show and ask any Brit
military collector who will back up my statements. If you give me your e-mail I can send you many pics to illustrate this point. Also Canada received their first Snider rifles in 1867. The Snider bayonet is the most common socket bayonet in Canada. JOHN

Right.
Or...rather, the linked first website is incorrect Thank you for that, I'd love to see your pics.
Should have went with my gut, I believed the socket was where the proper regimental markings were, but deferred to "experts".
Now that I am back home and have had a look at my P-1853 Bayonet, the same 'E 30" is on the shoulder.
The socket has 58 over 146, the 146 I assume is the "stand" or Rack # similar to how the rifles are numbered, and the 58 must indicate it was from
the 58th Battalion of infantry - the Sherbrooke Hussars (Nice name )

That makes sense as the Snider Enfield it came with, has 51 on the brass butt plate above the rack # which indicates that it saw service with the 51st Battalion, Hemmingford Rangers.

Sherbrooke Quebec and Hemmingford Quebec are only 180 kilometres apart so that seems likely that the socket numerals are correct.

OP- the 2 on your socket may indicate 2nd Battalion, Queen's Own Rifles based out of Toronto.

58th Compton Battalion of Infantry, when the Snider-Enfield rifles were in service.

Now that there’s a few Snider knowledgeable types in this thread, I’ll go ahead with a question.

I have a 2 band Sargent model 1870’s with a larger OD barrel than the regular 3 band MkII and MkIII Sniders. The regular bayonets won’t fit but there is a rectangular knob on he side of the barrel near the muzzle and I presume that’s for a bayonet. I’ve done some searching for details on this but can’t find anything. Any ideas.?

The curved "Yataghan" sword bayonets are meant for the P-60 and P-61 Snider short Rifles as seen here on the excellent YouTube channel "British Muzzleloaders"
(I will try to "embed" the video when I have a bit more time.)
https://youtu.be/oJp2q_HWPF8


More info here : https://www.forgottenweapons.com/forgotten-weapons-short-yataghan-bayonets/

What Sherbrooke said. Sgt's Pattern Sniders are not meant to take a socket bayo, rather the Yataghan sword models.

Thanks for all the information.

 

[bush1]

Great info on the “Yataghan” sword, thanks. Now I’ll have to find one.

There’s a wealth of knowledge lurking here in these threads and I’m appreciative.

 

[Garyg]

Does the bayonet from a snider MkI or MkII fit on a MkIII Snider ?

 

[bush1]

Does the bayonet from a snider MkI or MkII fit on a MkIII Snider ?

I have MkII, MkII** and MkIII, 3 band Sniders and all three fit the same triangular bayonet. My MkIII 2 band short rifle has a larger OD barrel and the triangular bayonets won’t fit it. I will have to get a Yataghan type sword bayonet for this one.

 

[cigar_man]

The socket is stamped with G T and a 2 over 63.

Grand Trunk Railway Regiment - 2nd Battalion Rifles - Rack#63

If you're on facebook,,, drop over and join my Snider Enfield page!!!!

BTW!!! jtaylor's information is as solid as you will find anywhere in Canada.

He has forgotten more than most of us will obtain in a lifetime!

Also ,,,, No.8 Company of the 3rd Battalion Grand Trunk Railway Brigade has a J. Taylor

I will have to get a Yataghan type sword bayonet for this one.

Depending on the maker of the Yataghan,,,, it may not fit.

A Yataghan with a crested helmet logo of the Kirschbaum factory in Solingen, Germany, should fit any Snider as they where made to less tolerance.