Old vs New- H4831

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SomebodyTookMyName

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Hey all,

I've managed to acquire a substantial quantity of older (80's and earlier by cans/dates) Hodgdon H4831- it's been stored well, and have no doubts about its safety, however I do have a question about loading it...

Previously I understand the various 4831-series powders were military surplus powders that were repacked for civilian sale. Nowadays H4831 is marketed as an "Extreme-series" powder with their temperature insensitive coating...

So I'm wondering- is there a difference in performance/burn rate/stability between the original H4831 stuff and current production "Extreme-series" H4831?
 
By the 80’s H4831 was new manufactured. Only way to get the surplus was buying second hand. Stocks of surplus had sold out and Hodgdon was producing new stuff. Is it different, I haven’t noticed except for minor lot to lot variation. I had H4831 from 1988 that was very close to H4831 purchased in 2019. To my knowledge original H4831 was marked as surplus on the cans.
 
Snider shooter said:
By the 80’s H4831 was new manufactured. Only way to get the surplus was buying second hand. Stocks of surplus had sold out and Hodgdon was producing new stuff. Is it different, I haven’t noticed except for minor lot to lot variation. I had H4831 from 1988 that was very close to H4831 purchased in 2019. To my knowledge original H4831 was marked as surplus on the cans.
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Good to know, thanks! In that case I'll check back on the dates and see what I've got. I believe the latest was '88 or '89, but some definitely dates back further.
 
I have loaded 4831 since the early 1960's We bought the surplus stuff from a local [Okanagan] smith
who sold it to us in heavy paper bags. I believe I paid 75 cents a pound for the first couple of pounds,
then a dollar for some time. FWIW, Norma 204 and 205 were $2.95/lb at the time.

If anything, the newly manufactured H4831 is a tad quicker than the old stuff, but within what are
considered lot-to-lot variations. The latest stuff is less temp sensitive, of course. Regards, Dave.
 
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Eagleye said:
If anything, the newly manufactured H4831 is a tad slower than the old stuff, but within what are
considered lot-to-lot variations. The latest stuff is less temp sensitive, of course. Regards, Dave.
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Excellent info, thanks as well! I suppose I'll try to keep the case nice and full, maybe try a mag primer and see what my cold weather speeds are like this winter.
 
To add a little confusion there is more than one "Newly Manufactured" H4831. The first new 4831 I am aware of was made in Scotland. Then there was another that I believe we are getting now is made in Australia. There may be more.
 
Differences would be possible if it was bulk surplus. Believe it was the powder in 40mm anti aircraft ammo. Surpluse in late 40's means if any such exists it 70-80 years old.

Powder will change speed as it ages. If your thinking it's different can to can. Mix it together, repour it into the cans, now it's all the same. Start low and work up loads. This is literally what they do when manufacturing powder. Test it, add slightly fast or slow, in this case h4831, to the thousands of pounds to bring it to cannister grade speed.
 
Mixing up powders - I asked that question on CGN some time ago - not certain there was a good answer - I know some have said they do so - so take 8 x one pound containers - dump into a big bowl or pail - now what? Stir with mixing spoon? Then, decant back into the original 8 containers - how does user know what goes into first cartridge case from first can, is same blend as middle case from 4th can, and is still same as into the last case from the last can? Is not a fluid or a gas that has some dissipation abilities - is distinct kernels that need to be mixed - I am not sure that I understand how to know when the "blend" is actually "mixed" - thoroughly?? Rolling the big pail on the floor was suggested - not sure that I buy that? I suspect that stirring or concrete mixer action would eventually "even out" a blend, but is perhaps hours of stirring to do that??
 
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I quit using H4831 back then because there was more variation lot to lot than IMR4831 and I could not afford buying large quantities of the same lot.
 
Potashminer said:
so take 8 x one pound containers - dump into a big bowl or pail - now what? Stir with mixing spoon? Then, decant back into the original 8 containers...
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At least for myself, I was planning to pour two cans at a time (I have as many hands, so that'll work perfectly at least) as much as possible into a single stream into a large plastic feed pail and alternate between a few cans pouring a bit at a time, then seal the lid and spend the evening tossing it and turning it over the course of one of the Original Trilogy movies. I figure that'll be mixed enough for my purposes, but if nothing else the chronograph will tell the final story.
 
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I agree - the chronograph will tell the story - after you have claimed to have mixed it well enough for the burning rate to no longer be an issue. Is sort of a crude way to discover that one had been in error?? It just multiplies - if you "thoroughly" mix a two pound batch, what does that mean for the other pounds on hand?? Are they the same or different than that first 2 pounds blend??
 
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Potashminer said:
I agree - the chronograph will tell the story - after you have claimed to have mixed it well enough for the burning rate to no longer be an issue. Is sort of a crude way to discover that one had been in error?? It just multiplies - if you "thoroughly" mix a two pound batch, what does that mean for the other pounds on hand?? Are they the same or different than that first 2 pounds blend??
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Your logic is sound, I can't argue, but I suppose I should've first mentioned that I got the powder for free from an old timer who no longer reloads, so if this experiment does not work out, I'm only out a few bullets/primers and some time.

As I said, I'm confident the powder is plenty safe to use, so if it doesn't get decent SD's, it'll get relegated to fireforming or plinker load duty.
 
If you need a old copy of the free reloading hodgdon manual, i have some of the old copies in PDF that I can email you, year 2000 for example

if you want it send me your private email to me and can see what i can do

Yes some of the powders can vary 5-10 % ...... that why you work up loads

average is 5 % +-
 
SomebodyTookMyName said:
Your logic is sound, I can't argue, but I suppose I should've first mentioned that I got the powder for free from an old timer who no longer reloads, so if this experiment does not work out, I'm only out a few bullets/primers and some time.

As I said, I'm confident the powder is plenty safe to use, so if it doesn't get decent SD's, it'll get relegated to fireforming or plinker load duty.
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For sure I am like you - I would want to make a way for it to work for me - but was pointing out what some seem to think is a minor, simple thing, which I will have to be taught is not so complicated as I think it is ...
 
just having some fun said:
If you need a old copy of the free reloading hodgdon manual, i have some of the old copies in PDF that I can email you, year 2000 for example

if you want it send me your private email to me and can see what i can do

Yes some of the powders can vary 5-10 % ...... that why you work up loads

average is 5 % +-
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer! I'll peruse my load books tonight and make take you up on that. I believe I do have some older manuals from Hornady and Speer that likely date around the time the powder was made, so I may just be alright. I definitely won't be using modern H4831 data to start though.
 
The original powder didn't have an "H" prefix.

That was added later, by the Hodgdon Company.

4831 started life as a milspec powder and some of the early lots had enough difference between burn rates that meant caution had to be applied whenever a new container was purchased.

The nice thing about the original "4831" is that the lots made were HUGE.

If you could find it in the original barrels, it would all be the same. Not so if the next barrel was from a different lot.

When Bruce Hodgdon bought up quite literally millions of pounds of different surplus powders, he was careful to store the lots seperately.

When his company decided to add an "H" prefix, I believe, but can't prove they started taking large lots and blending them for a more consistent burn rate and it worked very well.

Back in the day, when you could go to Kessilring's and pick up two sixteen ounce scoops of 4831, in a brown paper lunch bag for a buck, I was told by the owner that the powder in the 250 pound barrels was "non blended" and was very careful to emphasize the importance of ''starting loads''

Approximately 25 years ago, the milsurp 4831 ran out for Hodgdon and Mr Hodgdon commissioned a "New Manufacture" lot of H4831, using the milspec recipe.

It was a bit faster, but not as fast as IMR4831.

IMHO, depending on how it was stored or how often it was shaken, stirred, vibrated etc you should find the burn rates between lots to be very close with "new manufacture" lots of H4831.

H4831 is a very forgiving powder, with a very consistent burn rate from lot to lot.

If you have a lot# that is pre 1995, I would suggest you use start loads or at the very least mid spec loads.
 
To be clear. Keep your 8lb containers. If it's 8 lbs in individual cans, simply fill the small can once, don't open the big one everything. Doing that will change its speed far more than the individual variance of 35yr old cans. I would never .....ever mix two different powders.

It's getting all 8lbs the same speed, there is a tolerance in speed for each number. Does it matter if it's a slightly slow 4831, or a slightly fast? Just start low, find your load. Your 8lbs gives you about 1000 loads of 06. Have fun.

PS: no that powder will not be temp insensitive. If you develop a load in cool weather, come summer your load may be over pressure if you were already pushing it. The difference can be small, .5 or 1gr in say a 58gr 270 load.
 
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They changed the labelling when they went from the surplus to the new mfgr, surplus was labelled 4831, no "H", and is also referred to that way in the reloading manuals back in the day. The other reason for the change was IMR started selling IMR4831 in canisters, which was a different burn rate and mfgr'd in Quebec, vs Hodgdon being mfgr'd in Scotland, and nowadays in Aus. Anything labelled H4831 in new stuff.
 
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