Olive Branch

[DrawBlood]

There has been a lot of snotty attitude put forth by certain members and it has all been uncalled for. I wish to extend an olive branch to those that want to belittle others and I ask for it to stop. Myself and others have been targeted (and I'm not sure why) when we shared our '2 cents' and I don't believe that is fair. That is what a forum is for, the spread of knowledge between people because noone knows everything, and I am sick of those that think they do.

Another big issue is the 'you must be rich to be a good shot' attitude. For those of us on a budget, because of school, few hours, etc., we want alternatives. A $700 Savage with a Shilen might not be the most accurate, but I would have more fun with a cheap rifle that I can damage instead of one that I won't shoot because its $4000 barrel might get shot out. I am a firm believer in the Poor Man's Precision Coalition, and although the PMPC hasn't been started, I believe Jerry should create it (and lend us a few Stevens actions).

 

[iconfig]

let me be the first to poke you with the olive branch.

its very tiring hearing claims of factory savages with 100 dollar scopes shooting 0.1 moa in 30 kph wind while the sun is shining in your eyes and a ton of shifting mirage while standing on one leg.

lets be honest most of the real precision / br guys don't even bother posting here anymore simply because of these wild claims and the attacks on anyone that disagrees with them. so now all we get to read about is another factory gun with another semi custom barrel which was chambered with the same old reamer.

i will admit jerry has shown some awesome precision shooting / gunsmithing based on savage actions which is an interesting read but that isn't like most of the claims of 0.1 moa factory savages

as for being rich to be a good shot, no one here has said that. for my first "precision rifle" i chose leupold mk4 glass/base/rings sure it took me 2 months of layaway but i walked away with glass which is top quality, tough as nails and tracts properly every time. i'm not rich but i do understand the concept of buy once / cry once.

advocating cheap equipment because its cheap and sometimes works or works just ok, isn't something that should be done in a precision forum. for those on a budget there is always layaway or saving.

 

[DrawBlood]

let me be the first to poke you with the olive branch.

its very tiring hearing claims of factory savages with 100 dollar scopes shooting 0.1 moa in 30 kph wind while the sun is shining in your eyes and a ton of shifting mirage while standing on one leg.

lets be honest most of the real precision / br guys don't even bother posting here anymore simply because of these wild claims and the attacks on anyone that disagrees with them. so now all we get to read about is another factory gun with another semi custom barrel which was chambered with the same old reamer.

i will admit jerry has shown some awesome precision shooting / gunsmithing based on savage actions which is an interesting read but that isn't like most of the claims of 0.1 moa factory savages

as for being rich to be a good shot, no one here has said that. for my first "precision rifle" i chose leupold mk4 glass/base/rings sure it took me 2 months of layaway but i walked away with glass which is top quality, tough as nails and tracts properly every time. i'm not rich but i do understand the concept of buy once / cry once.

advocating cheap equipment because its cheap and sometimes works or works just ok, isn't something that should be done in a precision forum. for those on a budget there is always layaway or saving.

I do not want to push for false claims, nor do I deny them, for I was not there, although I believe a good group is nice, but there is more than that to shooting. There is fun (or atleast there should be) in shooting and I believe that precision shooting is a hobby, not a job. I like to enjoy things, and by no means am I saying buy crappy equipment but do your best with what you have, and have fun.

 

[Papaclaude]

Olives

I do not want to push for false claims, nor do I deny them, for I was not there, although I believe a good group is nice, but there is more than that to shooting. There is fun (or atleast there should be) in shooting and I believe that precision shooting is a hobby, not a job. I like to enjoy things, and by no means am I saying buy crappy equipment but do your best with what you have, and have fun.

Amen!

 

[Max Owner]

I have learned that it is more important to get out and shoot then read stuff on this forum.

Sadly durring my days off it has been too windy to shoot without a spotter with my shooting skills.

First sentence is key. I too have read what you speak of and really, who the hell are they?

They are no one.

 

[marcoman]

Careful what you say about Savage in this forum, I was less than politically correct about my thoughts of them and was censored and reprimanded by a wise mod. Savage is THE BEST!

 

[juanvaldez]

let me be the first to poke you with the olive branch.

its very tiring hearing claims of factory savages with 100 dollar scopes shooting 0.1 moa in 30 kph wind while the sun is shining in your eyes and a ton of shifting mirage while standing on one leg.

lets be honest most of the real precision / br guys don't even bother posting here anymore simply because of these wild claims and the attacks on anyone that disagrees with them. so now all we get to read about is another factory gun with another semi custom barrel which was chambered with the same old reamer.

i will admit jerry has shown some awesome precision shooting / gunsmithing based on savage actions which is an interesting read but that isn't like most of the claims of 0.1 moa factory savages

as for being rich to be a good shot, no one here has said that. for my first "precision rifle" i chose leupold mk4 glass/base/rings sure it took me 2 months of layaway but i walked away with glass which is top quality, tough as nails and tracts properly every time. i'm not rich but i do understand the concept of buy once / cry once.

advocating cheap equipment because its cheap and sometimes works or works just ok, isn't something that should be done in a precision forum. for those on a budget there is always layaway or saving.

I don't think the claims are that far off. I think you are missing the point though. Some of us are having a tremendous amount of fun playing with inexpensive components trying to shoot small groups or shooting in disciplines requiring a great amount of precision. I would say these posts belong in this forum. This isn't the "2000.00 Custom Action Only Bench Rest Only Forum". IMO its about people trying to shoot as accurate as possible regardless what they are using.

 

[Bear_Blade]

I haven't been here to long, and do more reading than posting for the simple reason there is a ton of info here, from experienced percision shooter's all the way down to kids still wet behind the ears. I recognize (sometimes) a padded description, or a lucky string of shooting that gets praised for recognition sake. Also I recognize that there are lot of selfless people on here honestly trying to give great advise when asked. There will always be a few doorknobs, who feel it is there God given right to belittle, or to "put in place" someone who asks a question that may sound trivial, or that they think shouldn't try percision shooting for any number of reasons.

This forum is an awsome resource, and for the short time I have been here, appreciate the guidance and feedback I have personally received. A few bad apples can spoil the fun, but such is life. Bottom line, shoot, have fun, if you have issues, you will likely find the help you need here. You don't need to get into a pissing match, take the good from the responses, and ignore the "bad apples". Simple.

IMO,

 

[Glockster Dude]

I haven't been here to long, and do more reading than posting for the simple reason there is a ton of info here, from experienced percision shooter's all the way down to kids still wet behind the ears. I recognize (sometimes) a padded description, or a lucky string of shooting that gets praised for recognition sake. Also I recognize that there are lot of selfless people on here honestly trying to give great advise when asked. There will always be a few doorknobs, who feel it is there God given right to belittle, or to "put in place" someone who asks a question that may sound trivial, or that they think shouldn't try percision shooting for any number of reasons.

This forum is an awsome resource, and for the short time I have been here, appreciate the guidance and feedback I have personally received. A few bad apples can spoil the fun, but such is life. Bottom line, shoot, have fun, if you have issues, you will likely find the help you need here. You don't need to get into a pissing match, take the good from the responses, and ignore the "bad apples". Simple.

IMO,

 

[BigUglyMan]

There are soem guys that like to complain every chance they get that they're tired of hearing the Savage/Stevens accuracy claims. While it's true that there are wildly exaggerated or "one off" accuracy claims (from both camps), there is a certain snobbishness to some people who think that unless you have a big name custom action in a dedicated BR cartridge with a top notch barrel (that you bought from them) and all put together by a reputed smith, you're a liar and unworthy of participation in the forum.

They can p*ss off. Some guys don't have the cash to lay out for a super-high-end custom. Lots of younger guys are starting out and all they want to do is punch paper, smack gongs and powder clay pigeons all at extended ranges. They don't want to be F-Class gurus or BR Kings. And like it or not, a Savage 10FP or Stevens with a custom barrel and aftermarket stock will do 98% of what most "precision rifle shooters" want to do. Live and let live...and try not to be an *sshole.

 

[ryandpahl]

NEVER take the internet, or anything posted on it, to heart! For every ounce of truth, there is a pound of BS. The real trick is learning how to sift through all the BS to find the truth.

Ignore the idiots, we are here to have fun and learn new ideas. Only way to prove anything is to take those ideas to the range and try them for yourself.

Remember : This is just another arena to try and piss on each other....so bring an umbrella!

 

[juanvaldez]

Well I owned a one of the magical savage guns. I put a pacnor bbl and a sav2 trigger on it and shot 3 consecutive 5 shot groups in the .1's with the first load I tried. Bought the bbl and trigger used , total cost after I sold the original bbl was around 1000$. For glass I added a 300$ Sightron SII I bougth out of the US. I made the mistake of thinking it was that easy, got bored and parted the gun out. Now I have a Shilen on a savage action that shoots in the .2's All told this for one I probably have about 1200-1300$ invested after selling the original bbl. It sports a 300$ Mueller scope. So for about 1500$ optics included to shoot consistently in the .2's...I am pretty happy with that. I am using 50$ burris sig z's off the exchange and steel weaver 2 piece bases that cost about 20$.

I recently purchased a Barnard/Robertson/McLellan/Sightron F-class rig, I'm anxious to see the difference. Of course my own skills need to be improved before I can get the full potential out of the gun I'm sure.

 

[DrawBlood]

Of course my own skills need to be improved before I can get he full potential out of the gun I'm sure.

Exactly. For someone just getting into the sport, why spend all that just for shooting on weekends or if you don't know if you will stick with it. You can upgrade as skills and funds allow, but please don't diss someone else's rig. If they love it, that's all that matters to me. I want my nephew to know what my grandfather was able to do when he's older. With mediocre equipment, and not shooting for several DECADES, he shot a 7" group at a grand. Freehand. And that is NOT bull.

 

[Toomanyguns]

Exactly. For someone just getting into the sport, why spend all that just for shooting on weekends or if you don't know if you will stick with it. You can upgrade as skills and funds allow, but please don't diss someone else's rig. If they love it, that's all that matters to me. I want my nephew to know what my grandfather was able to do when he's older. With mediocre equipment, and not shooting for several DECADES, he shot a 7" group at a grand. Freehand. And that is NOT bull.

An interesting exercise is to shoot the opposite hand. Much fun. Start with small caliber or .410 shotgun and work up. Much fun and great challenge. Cheap guns work very well for this type of shooting.

 

[Mystic Precision]

JV, when shooting skill improves, ALL rifles shoot better

shooting in the 2's at LR will prove very challenging but the Shilen is up to the task. Holding the V bull at 500m IF you dope the wind, that's worth alot more then the money spent.

Look forward to hearing about your new rig. Very nice parts indeed. What will the chamber be?

Consider putting the new Sightron on the Savage to see if that improves things?

Jerry

 

[lejarretnoir]

I'm not sure why an Olive Branch is needed as I'm still trying to define where the war was declared.

Custom actions vs factory or military repeaters?

From my experiences which are only from Target Rifle and F-Class [no formal Bench Rest shooting], it has a lot to do with barrel, bullet and shooter technique.
I've seen a P14 that took 1st place in 1,000yds F-Class matches. I've owned some custom actions and sold them because I couldn't shoot them any better than my Rem 700 guns with custom barrels.

I'm simply not a fan of Savage actions, but have never discounted their performance nor dislike them. They work and other people like them. If custom actions make you feel better or give you some sense of belonging to a certain club, knock yourself out. I just know what I like and have seen. If you beat me in a match I know it won't be the action defining the win, but the other three elements I'll be more interested in.

Didn't someone recently on CGN win a Service Rifle event with an SKS beating all the customized AR-15's?

On another point.
Mediocre equipment is just that, mediocre. It will never stand up to the finest in a race and don't expect it to. Your run of the mill Ford Escape is not going to beat a Nitro burning Funny Car at the drag races. Nobody is putting down the Escape though. It does what it was built for.
Sorry, but I've seen scoped stock M96/38's at F-Class matches and they are not in the same league as a customized rifle built for the game. As to money, you're going to need to spend some hard cash on good barrels and bullets. No free lunch. You might get lucky and get a superb factory barrel, but you'll wear it out eventually and need a new one or what exactly are you doing in Precision Rifle forum?

BTW, don't we have different classes for factory and custom rifles in the ORA. There is a reason why.

 

[juanvaldez]

JV, when shooting skill improves, ALL rifles shoot better

shooting in the 2's at LR will prove very challenging but the Shilen is up to the task. Holding the V bull at 500m IF you dope the wind, that's worth alot more then the money spent.

Look forward to hearing about your new rig. Very nice parts indeed. What will the chamber be?

Consider putting the new Sightron on the Savage to see if that improves things?

Jerry

It will be in 6mmBR....I did think of putting it on the savage and I may just to see if it tightens things up.