Ontario Moose Draw Question

sbound

sbound

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On station eight, shooting the second low house.
I have a somewhat intricate question about Ontario’s moose draw. I have hunted moose and been in the draw for 17 years and thought that I had a complete understanding of it, but this year the MNR pulled something that I have never heard of before.

I am wondering if anyone has come across this. The scenario is as follows:

My group is an organized hunt camp in WMU 57. We own 1000 acres of land and have plenty of moose on the property. WMU 57 is one of these “no calf” zones where you need to apply for even a calf tag.
As the number of adult tags are limited and there is no guaranteed group size, our strategy has been to use a group of 15 Pool 1 hunters applying as a group each year. We hold an additional Pool 1 hunter in reserve so that when whoever draws the tag goes into Pool 2 we still have 15 Pool 1 people for the following year’s draw and so on.

This has worked well for us for a number of years; we always apply for a bull tag and we always get one. One tag is all we want, we are not greedy. Our thinking was always that we had the best chance with the largest possible group of Pool 1 applicants (which is 15).

To our surprise, this year we didn’t get a tag at all. There were 23 bull tags available. By my thinking, it would seem a rare chance that there were more than 23 organized groups containing the maximum of 15 Pool 1 hunters, so we contacted the MNR to enquire.

The person who is in charge of the moose draw told us that because the ratio of applicants to tags exceeded 15:1 this year and was actually 18:1, they decided to throw out all of the group applications in WMU 57 and enter everyone as individuals! As such, our group (and I presume many others) got nothing after having thrown $750+ into a black hole.

Has anyone ever heard of this 15:1 ratio thing? I never have, and it seems like an arbitrary decision to me.

I’m sure we have no recourse, but I’d love to find out more information if anyone knows anything.

Thanks
 
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Can't say I have heard that before but they have been doing some strange things. I have been sending letters to the MNR to try and change the application process. I suggested they do it like the elk draw an application fee only. for example if you put in for the draw it will cost you X amount ie.$15 to apply if and only if you get drawn will you have to pay the $55 for the tag. It is not fair that year after year we have to purchase a tag that is useless to us in these no calf zones???
The response I got was that I could use the tags in other WMU's to hunt calves. To which I replied first if I wanted to hunt other WMU's I would have applied there and secondly l still have the option to purchase a tag if I decide to hunt a different WMU. My understanding is they are now considering this proposal????? We will see. I suggest getting as many of your people to send the MNR a similar letter if you like the idea.
 
sbound said:
I
The person who is in charge of the moose draw told us that because the ratio of applicants to tags exceeded 15:1 this year and was actually 18:1, they decided to throw out all of the group applications in WMU 57 and enter everyone as individuals! As such, our group (and I presume many others) got nothing after having thrown $750+ into a black hole.
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The MNR can do what the MNR wants in the end, and you've obviously run into something they've done as an exception. Probably can't fix that.

Except they did it wrong. The book they publish every year clearly states that moose hunting is a group activity and they work to encourage that. It's not meant as a one person/individual hunting event. And that's why those with larger groups of pool 1 hunters get a better chance - it promotes group hunting for moose.

What they in fact did was allow me as an individual the same chance as you. As an individual I would have had 1 chance in whatever. Your group had 15 chances in whatever. That's the wrong approach.
They should simply taken everyone with 15 pool 1 and drawn until they were out of tags. If they had tags left, go down to 14. Just like they do every year. The difference is that under that system as an individual I would have 0 chances and your group would have had some type of chance of getting a tag that's greater than 15 times my chance. That would promote the group hunting they are trying to encourage, not the way they did it. (in other words, large groups should have more than a 15 to one chance of getting a tag compared to an individual).

I can't imagine why they did it the way they did. It's a bit twisted.
 
The way you describe it is the way the system is suppose to work, according to my understanding. Its in the regs but my basic understanding is this:
Step 1 - allocate tags to groups the meet Guaranteed Group Size - doesn't apply.
Step 2 - Calculate Large Group Size, which based on this years tag submissions was apparently 18, at 15 you don't meet that requirement so no tag for you.
Step 3 - Random individual draws for all remaining tags.
 
They should have just drawn the group tags, with no guaranteed group size, like they do in other wmu's. Another issue, is guys being put into pool 2 this year, even though they were in pool 1 last year and didnt draw. I know 2 guys that lost pool 1 status for no reason.
 
Kenny_G2 said:
The way you describe it is the way the system is suppose to work, according to my understanding. Its in the regs but my basic understanding is this:
Step 1 - allocate tags to groups the meet Guaranteed Group Size - doesn't apply.
Step 2 - Calculate Large Group Size, which based on this years tag submissions was apparently 18, at 15 you don't meet that requirement so no tag for you.
Step 3 - Random individual draws for all remaining tags.
Click to expand...
I beleive that's correct as well. Unfortunately while that's the actual procedure, I don't think the specific implementation in this case was actually the intention behind the way it was setup. I don't think they intended to have a case where step 1 didn't apply.
 
hunt365 said:
I have been sending letters to the MNR to try and change the application process. I suggested they do it like the elk draw an application fee only... My understanding is they are now considering this proposal????? We will see. I suggest getting as many of your people to send the MNR a similar letter if you like the idea.
Click to expand...

I have written letters to the Minister of Natural Resources, David Orazietti, and to the opposition critic Laurie Scott, (So far, no reply from either party) suggesting not only moving to an application fee, similar to the elk draw, but of the scrapping of the whole draw system in favour of a preference point system.

The current system disriminates terribly against those who are unwilling or unable to hunt with a large group. I have been putting in for the draw almost since it's inception 30 years ago, and in that time I've received two bull tags for my "home" WMU. Unless I want to drive 24 hrs to north of Thunder Bay, it's entirely possible that I'll never see another adult tag.

As far as I know, Ontario is the only jurisdiction that bases the draw on group size and pool status, likely because the system is so seriously flawed. There are many other provinces and states that use preference points, and in my view, this is the only way to make it fair for everybody. Eventually everybody would get a tag, and those that choose to hunt in large gangs could still manage their points so they get a tag more often than not.

Just my 2 cents.
 
The problem with points is, as more and more people get points for low tag areas, theyll just keep upping the number of points you need...
 
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