opinion wanted

You only come this way once!! Do it!! And push hard -- also keep your eyes open for related business opportunities eg you may find that brass production pushes you into another niche market involving brass/copper extrusions ... anyway you wont find out till you try! We need more - lots more - manufacturing entrepreneurs in Ontario/Canada.

The advice to stay away from big box is ok BUT there may be times that the cash flow will keep you alive and you do what you have to do! BUT be careful of agreements that tie you to a distributor without some performance guarantees - otherwise if they fail to perform/market your product you could be SOL. And watch out that you keep the agreements current .. eg if you ramp up production (and capital investment) based on increased demand with an old performance agreement ... you'll be hung out to dry when/if demand drops,

Here's another hint. Get a good feel for markets and even purchase agreements (in principle) before you start. It will also give you an idea of what prices distributors will want to pay and for what quality.

Don't overestimate your quality at first, your distributors won't. And if you go to them with average or below average quality product to start, when you told them high quality, you will lose orders and credibility. Also, find out payment terms.

Another is to find insurance. Not just for your premises and production, but also product liability. The biggest is to find one or two experience employees for machine setup and operation. Or make a deal with the equipment manufacture for training and including employees for training you and your employees. Sure it will cost a lot, but if you need quick cashflow, spend the money and include it as startup costs.
 
I don't know - there are plenty of small to mid-size manufacturing firms making money here (maybe not in Ontario, but...). The problems I've seen is when they try to compete or break into the Wal-Mart, Bass Pro, etc., chains. We have a more than competitive workforce, pretty fair taxation for companies, are close to a HUGE market, have reliable transportation, energy, and a stable political climate. I'm pretty sure a company that makes a quality product, at a fair price for that product (it may very well not be $18 a brick .22 ammo) could make a good go of it. Just don't try to sell to Wal-mart, who will insist that it BE $18 a brick crap, or try to go too big, where you end up with a huge office and marketing staff to pay for. At 2% net profit margin, you have to generate $50 in sales for each and every admin dollar you spend, just to break even. I think that's where a lot of companies kill themselves. Determine what a reasonable return on your investments would be, aim for that, and don't aim to become a CCI, and you should make it just fine.

It's not about how many small and mid-size manufacturing firms there are right now. How many are starting up right now? It's one thing to have an established company, and quite another to start from scratch, especially with no experience in that particular field. I've gone through it working for a startup. It's a real bugger. And they had experience in a major area of their business.

It's doable, but the big question is can production be started while prices are still high? And, can the company survive when prices drop back down.
 
This book has a section on Eley's rimfire manufacturing processes for accurate rimfire ammo.

The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy: Getting the Most Out of Your Equipment and Yourself Paperback –
October 1, 1990 by Glenn Newick (Author)

Ammunition making: An insider's story Paperback – January 1, 1990
by George E Frost (Author)


 
A big business can't start and stop just because the market takes an up swing.

I understand that, but I remember there being reports of .22 shortages as far back as 2008, when Obama was first elected. That was 6 years ago. So I wouldn't really call the current shortage that big of an upswing.

It has to be sustainable in the long run, especially training and retaining key employees. It's also why US ammo companies aren't putting in new ammo manufacturing lines, they are just running more shifts on their existing lines. They know/suspect that demand will drop as the market becomes saturated. Might take a year or two, but it will happen. At that point, they just cut the number of shifts, they don't have to idle a production line and employees.

I disagree that the market will become saturated in a year or two, with production as it currently is. As long as new (and old) gun owners are buying guns, the demand is just going to increase (like me for example, I got my first gun 7 years ago, and just bought my first rimfire a month ago). The number of gun owners in the US and Canada is on the rise, and what does everyone always say? "Your first gun should be a .22". Especially with all of the new guns being made, new models being introduced, conversion kits and dedicated uppers being built, higher capacity mags being designed, etc. There's currently no threat of any of these guns being banned, yet the demand is still there while the AR market bubble has burst. The shelves are as bare as they were in 2012, and we're even starting to see the shortage creep up here into Canada (here and there but not everywhere). The US ammo companies are running their lines nonstop, and nothing has changed. Nothing will if everyone keeps doing what they're doing. I see it as more of a reluctance to invest so much capital into starting new lines and making it back a fraction of a cent at a time then them predicting that the bubble will burst.

Apparently Aguila in Mexico is adding production lines. That's what happens when the market is hot. More existing players enter the market. Which will also mean we will likely have lots of cheap 22 ammo in a couple years from all the new production that's coming online right now.

It will be interesting to see if they add enough capacity to make a dent in the demand.

Anyone going into manufacturing or supplying a commodity/product that happens to be at a high price right now, better have low enough manufacturing costs to survive selling that product at half that cost.


The best place for a "Canadian" company to manufacture ammo? Anyplace other than Canada....... Have a Canadian office, but manufacture elsewhere.

Ain't that the truth. :(
 
Gun ownership in Canada is on the rise? Would be nice to see numbers that support that statement. As far as I know, new gun ownership numbers likely aren't replacing the numbers of older shooters/hunters that have stopped shooting for one reason or another. All one has to do is remember what it was even like in the 70's (let alone before that time)compared to today.
 
I understand that, but I remember there being reports of .22 shortages as far back as 2008, when Obama was first elected. That was 6 years ago. So I wouldn't really call the current shortage that big of an upswing.



I disagree that the market will become saturated in a year or two, with production as it currently is. As long as new (and old) gun owners are buying guns, the demand is just going to increase (like me for example, I got my first gun 7 years ago, and just bought my first rimfire a month ago). The number of gun owners in the US and Canada is on the rise, and what does everyone always say? "Your first gun should be a .22". Especially with all of the new guns being made, new models being introduced, conversion kits and dedicated uppers being built, higher capacity mags being designed, etc. There's currently no threat of any of these guns being banned, yet the demand is still there while the AR market bubble has burst. The shelves are as bare as they were in 2012, and we're even starting to see the shortage creep up here into Canada (here and there but not everywhere). The US ammo companies are running their lines nonstop, and nothing has changed. Nothing will if everyone keeps doing what they're doing. I see it as more of a reluctance to invest so much capital into starting new lines and making it back a fraction of a cent at a time then them predicting that the bubble will burst.


It will be interesting to see if they add enough capacity to make a dent in the demand.

(

It's interesting that none of the existing US manufacturers have added more rimfire production lines. If the demand is going to continue to be so robust, then why wouldn't they? They already have the expertise and experience, so all it takes is money, and a lot less than starting from scratch with no experience or expertise.

Also consider that the centerfire shortage of a couple years ago is pretty much caught up, lots of stock around. Now the attention has turned to rimfire. It's now it's turn. In a year or two, supply will also have caught up to demand, the horders will still have full lockers, and prices will come down.

Reality is that rimfire is a high volume, low margin business.



It's interesting that about 4 years ago, I was part of a team doing a feasibility study for an iron ore mine. The price of iron ore at that time was constantly increasing, from $80/tonne to over $140/tonne. Yet the price used by the mining company for profitability of the project was about $70/tonne. Meaning if the cost of the project was over $70/tonne, then the project wouldn't proceed.

The project ($2 billion) proceeded to construction over the last couple years, with iron ore prices from $130 to $150+ a tonne. The project hasn't started producing yet, but the price of iron ore this week is under $80/tonne!!! And the price isn't expected to rise above $85 - $90 a tonne for the next year or two. Nobody could imagine the price of iron ore going back down that low, but here we are, 4-5 years later and looking at those prices just above where the project is just breaking even.

Several new iron ore mines with costs around the $90-$100 tonne mark have recently shut down and a couple have declared bankruptcy. Same thing has happened with lithium mines that were so hot a couple years ago, and even a number of high cost gold and silver mines. Look at oil prices, around $80/barrel, down from $100/barrel the past few years. This is putting pressure on oilsands projects, because their oil is already being sold at around a $15/barrel discount.

A business with high capital costs and low margins has to be viable during times of "normal" prices, not just during times of peak prices. Evidently almost all the rimfire manufacturers don't feel this existing demand/pricing is going to be sustained in the long term. If they did, they'd be adding more lines to capture greater market share, but they're not. I believe that at least one manufacturer has subcontracted overseas manufacturers (S&B) to produce for them.

Just a couple cautionary points about starting a business, producing a commodity, during a bubble.

The real question to ask yourself, would you start this same business if the prices were the same as one or two years ago?
 
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Gun ownership in Canada is on the rise? Would be nice to see numbers that support that statement.

Well, between Dec 2008 and June 2014 there's been a net increase of roughly 1500 valid licenses added per month.

As far as I know, new gun ownership numbers likely aren't replacing the numbers of older shooters/hunters that have stopped shooting for one reason or another.

Would be nice to see numbers that support that statement.

All one has to do is remember what it was even like in the 70's (let alone before that time)compared to today.

That's like comparing apples to oranges. So much has changed, and comparing today to the 1970's isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand.
 
Well, between Dec 2008 and June 2014 there's been a net increase of roughly 1500 valid licenses added per month.



Would be nice to see numbers that support that statement.



That's like comparing apples to oranges. So much has changed, and comparing today to the 1970's isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand.

Certainly it is. We aren't talking about prices or types of ammo available compared to back then but what it shows is how many gun owners and hunting licence owners there were in the 70's compared to the number today if you say ownership is on the rise. Maybe there has been a recent increase in the last couple of years but there was a steady decline in the last 30 years so that time period from the 70's to now is very relevant. We certainly haven't replaced the numbers lost. Look up the number of hunting licences sold in the 70's compared to the number sold today across the country. You stated that roughly 1500 valid licences are added each month. How many do we loose each month because of shooters passing away, becoming ill, getting too old to shoot or just plain give shooting up? There is a big push on, particularly by waterfowl organizations, to get young kids involved in shooting/hunting because we have lost so many shooters over the years. This could account for some of the increase in ownership but will it be a continuing trend. I hope it does.
 
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That's like comparing apples to oranges. So much has changed, and comparing today to the 1970's isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand.

There's a difference between gun ownership and number of hunters/shooters. The number of guns has increased, but it's that the number of guns owned by each person has increased rather than number of owners.

It seems that the number of rounds fired per person has also increased from a number of decades ago.

No question that number of hunters has decreased over the last few decades, even if the numbers are up the last couple years.

Here's the number of Migratory game bird permits

permit_sales.jpg


And consider that the population of Canada in 1978 was 24 million, compared to 35 million today, a 46% increase.


EDIT: Came across an article about demand for guns. S&W sales are down 5% this year and Ruger is down 14%.

And this quote from August this year.

Earlier this year, Cabela's CEO Thomas Millner noted that he's seen a "significant deceleration in ammunition sales" at his stores. And website thecabin.net goes so far as to say the ammunition shortage "may be ending," as manufacturers crank up production, wholesalers restock, and supplies begin filtering down to the retail level. With any luck, this will eventually result in fully stocked shelves at gun stores, assuaging consumers' panic-fueled urge to hoard ammunition -- and putting the .22 ammo shortage to bed once and for all.
 
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And regarding gun ownership numbers, there is quite a margin for error going by new valid licences issued. As I already mentioned, what are the records for those we lost? Also, it is only recently that we have to pay $60.00 to have our Pal renewed. This will affect ownership. There are a number of gun owners who, for whatever reason, have not fired their guns in a few years. I am pretty sure there will be a number of those people who will not pay the fee to renew when that time comes for them in the next 2 or 3 years. I also know for a fact that when a younger person goes to take the PAL course, a number of "buddies" will often go along and take the course. So if you have a group of say 7 people that go and take the course and are issued PALS, only a few out of that group may actually own guns. So again, that is not accurate as to the actual number of gun owners. And most likely those that don't own will likely not renew when the time comes. Plus who knows what lies ahead for gun ownership the next time a political party that is anti-gun gets into power. It would be nice to say gun ownership is on the rise, and I hope it gets that way. But I think the Jury is still out on that at this time.
 
Ok so I am making the official statement that the rimfire company is a bust and we are now looking into something in the small scale 38 special,357 mag. and 44 mag. manufacturing market but through hell or high water we will start some form of Canadian ammo company.

anybody interested please pm with helpful ideas and hints if you want Canadian ammo.
thanks

younggunz
 
I often wonder why is there isn't a Canadian ammo company. If you are selling quality ammo at a price that'd make us feel like we were getting fair pricing (i.e. A US resident buying ammo in the US.) then you'd have massive success. If the ammunition is the same as US product then it might be a fail.

Cheers~ and good luck!
 
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