Opinions for a first lever action for cowboy shooting

nitro-express: The 1866's narrow loading gate tab might have worked well originally, when these rifles were chambered for the rimfire, .44 Henry cartridge. But not so much with modern, centerfire ammo. Especially when subjected to the severe pounding these tabs endure, when used in Cowboy Action competition. So tab breakage is always a concern. Which will occur, sooner or later. Unless the tab is reinforced in some way. to prevent it.

You might already be aware of this simple fix for the '66's loading gate tab. But for those who might not: A dab of JB Weld in the right angle corner between the loading gate(ladle) and tab, goes a long way to support the tab and keep it from breaking off. Though not really necessary with the 1873's loading gate(much broader tab)....I give the tab on these the same treatment. Have yet to have a failure, after many thousands of rounds.

By the way, you hit the nail square on the head when you wrote, quote: "Having fun is the name of the Cowboy game". Yep....no more needs to be said.

Al
 
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Very good post Nitro and I will offer up my experience with cowboy ammo length in rifles.

I have found that for a Marlin , the ammo must be manufactured to run in that rifle. Marlins are famous for needing a bit of "double clutching" with factory spec ammo, not every time but often enough to be a concern to a real fast shooter. When my wife & I bought our first Marlin .38 for cowboy'n (back 20 yrs now), I was diligently loading to book length and crimping in the crimp ring. Neither one of us were into the speed crowd at that time just having fun learning the sport so the odd double clutch didn't matter a bit...but somewhere along the line that evolved into the wife becoming very competitive with "me"...and a buddy gave her his "Bob Munden" worked over marlin to try for a stage...That evening at home the Marlin came apart and the Dremmel came out, after a couple hours of polishing mill marks & cutting spring coils...that little Marlin was a smooth and quick as the Munden one....however, no mater how smooth and quick it was it still had that damn double clutch bread into it.
So I spent one entire weekend in the loading room and outside the back door of the house. I just used .38 sp brass as I had about 12,000 of them in stock and that was what we used ( had tried the .357 length brass before and didn't work any better). I started at the book recommended OAL and I would load 15 rounds, increasing length by 5 thou every batch. Damn if I didn't hit a sweet spot for every Marlin I have ever tried them in at one point. The length I found will work flawlessly in every Marlin I have tried them in ( and I tried them in lots of different guns) is 1.515. A RNFP cowboy slug will crimp half way between the first grease groove & the crimp ring. I have since loaded 10's of thousands of rounds this way and crimping mid-shank doesn't effect a thing...except allowing Marlins to work as reliable as any slicked up toggle rifle.

The toggle rifles are a completely different kettle of fish...the rifles can be altered to run any length ammo within a reason able length to factory. Without altering first, too short or too long ammo will lock those babies up solid. Because of the Marlin fussiness on ammo and the fact that the wife uses one exclusively I alter all my toggle rifle lifters to work flawlessly with any ammo I load for hers.
It is very easy to change the slope on the front of a cartridge lifter with a bench vise & a small file ( milling machine much better if you have use of one). You just have to move the cartridge bed lip back by changing the slope in the front of the lifter so the next cartridge out of the mag doesn't catch & is pushed back into the mag... You can also carry this a bit further by setting the magazine spring (by cutting coils) so that the last round out of the tube has just enough force to reliably get it there...it doesn't have to "snap" the cartridge out of the tube...the easier it is to push the round back up the tube the faster you will be able to operate your rifle.

Both the wife or I can grab a handful of rounds from any box I load & know they are going to work in whichever rifle we have in our hands.
 
fingers284: Many thanks for sharing this personal anecdote and your experiences with Marlin rifles. Though I mostly run toggle-link rifles these days, I can share some of your frustrations when dealing with Marlins ,in the past. Though they can be unholy beasts to deal with at times....with a bit of care and attention in the right spots, these little rifles can become real sweet hearts. Which is one of the reasons I am very interested to see how Marlin products evolve now, under the Ruger banner. It may just rekindle my interest in owning one, again.

Tuning our rifles....and ammunition.... for optimum performance and reliability, is something most cowboy action competitors take very seriously. And often go to great lengths to accomplish. Though it might take some time to get everything right....somehow the effort always seems worth it. Part of the fun and experience of cowboy action, I suppose.

Yet another of your posts I thoroughly enjoyed.

Al
 
All great info! Thanks everyone!

I am seriously considering looking into the Uberti 1873 in 357/38 or possibly a JM Marlin 1894 in the same caliber. I think I'll stick with 38s to start and get into the sport due to cost restrictions, but one day would like to get an 1866 in 44-40 and percussion revolvers for a BP loadout.

That being said, I still have a few questions. First, I know the toggle link on the 1873 is not as strong as the Marlin. Would it be safe to fire any factory load 38 I can get my hands on until I can get set up for reloading? I saw a lot on the internet about the higher power of the 357 damaging the 1873, but I would assume any 38 would be ok, no? And would jacketed rounds be ok? I know lead is what is used for matches, but jacketed rounds are cheaper and I'll save the brass.

And with the Marlins, a lot of them only hold 9 rounds of 357. I know the 38 is a tiny bit shorter, so would it be safe to say they would hold 10 38s?

Thanks again! Can't wait to join the sport!
 
DESOLATOR: The Uberti 1873, chambered in .357 is an excellent choice. Very versatile, easy to shoot and maintain. Plenty of parts available for modification, replacement, etc. You will like this rifle. Uberti rifles are the preferred match rifle of many competitors.
Next in preference, would be the Miroku-Winchester 1873. Excellent build quality throughout. Very smooth action right out of the box. So if tinkering with rifles is not your thing, the Winchester rifles are definitely also worthy of consideration. I own and use both brands of rifles.

Modern 1873 actions are built to handle ammunition loaded to SAAMI specs. Any standard factory .38 Special load, should be perfectly safe to use. That being said, the 1873's toggle-link action is still weaker than either the Marlin 1894 or Winchester 1892. So over time, feeding these rifles a steady diet of hot .357 factory loads or .38 Special Plus-P ammo, could result in headspace issues.

So, as long as you stick to standard velocity .38 Special target loads(125 gr bullet/approx 850 fps), you should have no problems. For example: Winchester "WinClean"....125 gr. JSP. This Winchester "white box" ammo is loaded for range/target use. Very suitable for your needs.

And yes....jacketed bullets are perfectly safe to use in your Uberti rifle. Before switching over to lead bullets though, a careful barrel cleaning with copper solvent(Hoppes', etc.), is highly recommended. And as you likely already know, lead bullets only, are mandated for cowboy action competition.


Likewise, stick to light to moderate reloads. You won't need hot loaded ammo for competition, anyway. That goes for .357 reloads, too.

By the way, once you start reloading, there are several online sources for new as well as once-fired brass. Also bulk powder, bullets, primers, etc. Some are site sponsors. This will save you considerable money, over buying factory loads to obtain brass.


Here's a handy online source that you should find helpful: Hodgdon Reloading. This site contains detailed reloading information on dozens of cartridges. Including: .38 Special. With data for both jacketed and lead bullets. Well worth a look. There are other online sources that also offer excellent info...but this one is a very good place to start.

Most .357- chambered Marlin 1894's should easily hold 10 rounds of .38 Special. Likewise, with the 20" barreled Uberti 1873 Short Rifle and 19" Carbine.

Be sure to keep an eye on the OSASF website, for information on upcoming matches. I expect to see local matches(fingers crossed) resuming sometime in July. There are several clubs right in the Hamilton area, that regularly host cowboy action matches. A couple of these....Burlington, for example, are held indoors. This club runs year-round.
Should you prefer an outdoor match...Decew gun club's own "Butler's Rangers" posse....host fun and competitive matches throughout the season. Observers are always welcome. Be prepared to have a good time. See some fun and exciting action. Plus: witness some of Ontario's top competitive shooters in action. You may even have the opportunity to get involved and shoot a stage or two. Simply ask. These folks are very accommodating(As are most other clubs).

Al
 
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DESOLATOR: Since you may have a "significant other" in your life, who might also wish to enjoy cowboy action.....the sport is very inclusive. Age, gender,
competitive shooting experience(Though all participants should have at least basic shooting and safe gun handling training), etc. really doesn't enter into anyone's consideration. After all...we're dressed up and playing cowboy! Just come, shoot and have fun!

Quite a few couples compete together....right up to and including major Provincial, State and National (both sides of the border),matches. Plus families.....kids, grandkids, etc. All are welcome.

Already mentioned by a previous poster....but bears repeating: As far as for rules, picking a shooting category, or for other information regarding Cowboy Action... simply go to the SASS home site, and peruse the latest SASS Shooters' Handbook. Has all the information you will need to get started. Hope this helps.

Al
 
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Hi Desolator

I re-read your original post and a few things popped out at me:

  • wont be competing anytime soon, it would be more for just my amusement for now. Maybe one day.
    [*]I absolutely love the 1866 look, its a beautiful firearm. The thing that Im not crazy about is that its only 38, so im a little more limited on ammo.
    [*]I dont reload at the moment, will one day, but for now Im going to stick to factory loads
    [*]the 1892 is more affordable for me

If I'm understanding the gist correctly it sounds (to me) that you want a rifle that can shoot 357 Magnum as well as 38 Special (ammo availability is a thing these days) and that you have plans to do cowboy action shooting in the future but not seriously. Cost is also a factor.

If that's the case then the 92 might be the better choice for you. The '66 and '73 are great rifles that can be tuned to the bleeding edge of speed but only if you're willing to dump a lot of custom gunsmithing money into them, re-load your ammunition to mouse fart levels, and do some serious training.

Honestly, give a Rossi a $50 spring kit and a polish job and it won't slow you down compared to a '66 / '73 with a spring kit and a polish job. Rossi '92's do have a reputation for poor feeding, but they're not nearly as bad as people say and the Uberti 66's/'73's have their issues too.

Your vision for the future is very similar to my past experiance, I started with a 92 Rossi (puma) with a 24" octagonal barrel chambered in 357 mag. I replaced the hammer / ejector spring, gave it a polish and it performed reliably and quickly with both 38 special and 357 mag loads. I then got hooked my black powder and shot 357 BP loads out of it (no problems with that either) but discovered that cleaning a '92 was a serious pain in the rear compared to a Marlin '94 or a '66 / '73.

Here's a video of me shooting the 92 firing 158 grain round nose over a 22 grains of fffg in 357 mag cases at 16" gongs set to 50 feet +/-. That's about as fast as I can go and guarantee hits at that range, but the rifle can shoot faster.

https://youtu.be/TONyeHfKeJo?t=53

I switched over to 1860 Army's and and the Uberti '73 Carbine in 44-40 shooting black powder. I can't say I'm any faster, actually overall I'm slower with the carbine mostly due to the increased recoil and the lower overall weight of the rifle, but it's a heck of a lot easier to clean than the 92.

So give some serious thought to the '92 Winchester. Off the range I think it's a superior rifle to a '66 / '73 in most respects. The only time the '66 / '73 really shines over the '92 is when it's in a CAS match and it's been tuned, the operator has been trained, and you're using super soft recoiling ammo.
 
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