Opinions on mismatched parts affecting value

Tinman204

Tinman204

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I thought I'd try and get a discussion going about how drastically does mis matched parts on a gun effect the value? I know it decreases value in most cases but I wonder to what extent. My buddy found a no4 long branch for sale a little while ago and asked me to give him some pointers about what a good price would be for it. He's new to milsurps and wanted my honest opinion about it. I inspected the pictures of it and it's in nice original shape, appears to be correct in every way. He said the guy wanted $500 for it and to me that was a good price based on the bore and condition etc. I told him it would be a good buy for his first milsurp.

The next day my friend phoned me and said the seller mentioned that it has a mis matched bolt but otherwise it's in great shape. My buddy passed on the gun cause he really wanted a numbers matching gun. I figured that I may make an offer on the gun but I'm not sure what a fair price would be. I really would like a nice longbranch to shoot and enjoy and the fact that a bolt is mis matched doesnt really bother me in a shooter. So what I'm wondering from some of you who have been buying and selling enfields for a long time is what would be a fair price for a mis matched longbranch in good shape? I'd like to try and make a deal for the gun but if the seller prices it too high I'll just wait for another one to come my way! I'm not trying to steal it from the guy but also I don't want to over pay, when I could say get a numbers matching gun for $50 more or something like that.

Opinions?
 
OK, you asked for opinions, so here is mine. I proclaim to be in no way an expert in these matters. Mismatched bolt, first question is why? Many are , but is it built up from parts, restored by a hobbyist or did it come from a factory rebuild that way? (Look carefully at the serial numbers, look if it has a new designation electro-pencil engraved on the left side of the metal action. FTR means Factory Thorough Rebuild , ie upgraded and made like new and current, but usually post-war. )
An original matching bolt definitely would make it more desirable, it seems about 90% are not matching numbers though.Who knows what it went through in a worksop somewhere 60 to 70 years ago.
It seems like current asking prices of No 4 Enfields are like this- based on the last several months in the EE. Sporterized, Bubba examples, $125-300, Worn out rough originals, $350-400. Rebuilt examples similarly priced. Nice originals with a little wear or damage, $450- 600. Super nice untouched, in the grease matching number full original military spec, $600-1200. Sniper rifles with original scope and wooden box, and accessories, $4000-6000. So really, value is based on what you think is reasonable. It's nice to have a personal inspection of the rifle, if you see something that doesn't look right you can pass. There are lots around and another WILL come up if you are looking. If it seems like a really good deal you will know it to see it. Mismatched bolt is a warning sign that it may be heavily used, and something worn out and parts replaced. Headspacing can be an issue if the wrong bolt was carelessly swapped.
Again, my opinion. Igf you know anybody into Enfields, you could ask them to have a look at it first, or take some pics and post them here. Lots of guys with lots of knowledge and lots of opinions. Lots of people think Enfield prices are really starting to climb. If it isn't in bad shape, $500 may be high now but quite reasonable in 6 months or a year. Good luck.
 
I agree with what you are saying. I already own an enfield and am very comfortable with inspecting one. The gun comes with 1x fired brass so I would inspect it to check for backed out primers etc and see any signs of headspace issues. I also fallow the EE on here daily so I think I have a decently grasp of pricing. The pics sent were very detailed the wood receiver and barrel are all matching, no FTR on it etc. The rifle is clean but not too clean. to me it looks original except for the mis matched bolt. This is why I was asking the question on value cause most I've look at lately are either in bad original shape, restored bubba gun or numbers matching and in original shape. This one is in very good original shape but unrestored, all matching from what I can tell but the flaw is a mismatched bolt. I'm very interested in people's thoughts about this sort of thing, would you rather have a numbers matching unrestored but in very used condition gun or a good condition gun that isn't bubba'd or restored but it had a mismatched bolt?
 
Generally if a Bolt was switched-out during FTR the new bolt had the SERIAL NUMBER ground and a new number to match the Rifle electro-pencilled in its place or, one in a blue moon, under the bolt-handle on the flat there.

If there were issues with a rifle at other times, it is possible that the Unit Armourer might change-out a Bolt.

In any case, the matching Bolt is desirable, but the most important thing is.... does the rifle LIKE the Bolt it has?

Remember, Bolts were MATED to individual rifles. That's what the second round at Proofing was: an OILED Ball cartridge which produced so much back-thrust on the bolt that it jammed the bolt LUGS back INTO the locking-recesses so hard that the Bolt and Body became a UNIT. Changing-out the Bolt can give you a situation in which the lugs don't quite match-up with the recesses, allowing for more loading on one lug than on the other, with ensuant twisting of the action or the bolt during firing and relatively poor accuracy due to uneven base support of the round.

That said, HEADSPACE problems with the Number 4 are addressed by changing-out the Bolt-head for one with a higher or lower number, depending upon what you need.

Over at milsurps dot com they have a thing called "Angel's Matchmaking Service". This is nothing that Tac870 would be interested in (he's a POF man, anyway) but it IS a listing of bolts, by rifle and by SERIAL, which are available for trades. You just MIGHT find the Bolt you are looking for there.

I have a couple of Number 4s here. One looks as if a tank drove over it. The other is pristine, unfired and unnumbered. Both match up perfectly. So I am no expert on unmatched rifles per se. I would think, however, that an unmatched but otherwise functional Bolt ought to knock 50 bucks or so off the asking price of whatever is being offered.

There should be somebody on here shortly who was a lot more wheeler-dealing than I do. They will be able to give you a better answer.
 
For me, it would depend upon the Make and model of the rifle, and the scarcity of that particular rifle, along with the intended purpose. Tor example, a Collector wants to have the best example of a rifle that they can get, but if the rifle is for informal shooting, then a lower standard can apply.

The previous posts to this thread have given some good reasons why a matching bolt/receiver is desireable, and preferrred. In the Lee-Enfield system, it is possible to change the headspace fairly reasonably, but other rifles do not have the same features. For example, the Swedish Mauser rifles have the bolt matched to the action, and while replacement bolts are part of an Armourers job, these are usually fitted by an Armourer to the individual receiver when one is replaced.

When Interarmco brought in the m/94 Swedish Carbines in the late 1950s, they bought the rifles and imported the bolts as one lot and the bolt-less rifles as another shipment. While this cut down the amount of tax and duties they had to pay, they then attempted to mate the rifles and bolts together, and found it an almost impossible task. So most of the original shipment of the m/94 Swedish Carbines had mis-matched bolts. Swedish m/94 Carbines are not plentiful, and newer collectors want one to complete their collection, so they are willing to pay the price for one. On the other hand, Lee Enfields are fairly common, so the price is much lower.

To me, a mismatched bolt can take 10% to 25% off the value of a rifle.
 
FWIW, most mis-matched bolt rifles were not built up in bubba's basement but are instead a product of an exporter or importer shipping rifles without bolts installed and distributors being too lazy to match them back up again in the 1960's through the 1990's. After all, they were only $20-50 rifles in those days and labour costs money.
 
Guns with mismatched bolts were stored with the bolts separate. This was a security issue in the armory. An example is, m1 garand rifles with numbered bolts, bolts replaced with un-numbered bolts. m14 military rifles with numbered bolts, bolts replaced with un-matching numbered bolts or un-numbered bolts.
Italian military long Branch no4's imported into America all had mis-matched bolts because of storage. Matching bolts came mostly with un-issued or long term storage in the crate guns.
Changing bolts to un-numbered bolts doesn't make it the original bolt to the gun.
 
Two vets served their country. One fought the length of Italy until VE day. The other was a guard at a ammo factory in Toronto.

Which, in your heart, gets the most respect?

Two rifles. One looks like it also fought the length of Italy. The other looks unissued.

We wish one of them could talk. Why don't we respect it more?
 
There is one group of rifles that should have mismatched bolts. In 1936, in Spain, 7mm Mauser rifles in one armoury, and the bolts in another. This was done in an attempt to make the rifles less useful because of the deteriorating political situation. When the Civil War broke out, bolts were installed in rifles without any attempt to match them up. The rifles were eventually sold off surplus in the '50s. If a Spanish Mauser has a mismatched bolt, it was used during the Civil War.
 
We don't judge a veteran by how grizzled he looks. We look for evidence such as medals, documents or talking with them.

Many collectors like mint firearms, knives etc. They have merit but lack history.

Rifles that "look" like they went through a war may have done so, or may have bounced around in the back of a pick-up truck for years. The real difference for a beat up looking rifle is its HISTORY. If you are lucky it can "talk" e.g.:
* a capture marking (e.g. carved into the butt of a Boer Mauser carbine that Alan Lever of Lever Arms in Vancouver had when I worked for him in the 1970s)
* a name carved into the butt (e.g. LECKIE carved into the butt of his Moisin Nagant that he brought back from Murmansk area of USSR after the Allied Intervention in Russia - I put it into the Seaforth Museum collection in the early 1970s)
* a capture plaque (e.g. a Mauser Gew98 with plaque saying it had been captured at Regina Trench. Sadly I did not buy it.)
* a plaque (e.g. a rare Boer sporting Mauser with the name of the owner Botha and the town - probably Generfalk Botha's rifle. Seaforeth Museum collection.)
* an heirloom (e.g. a verteran's "bring-back" Lee-Enfield No. 1 Mk. III* used on the Dieppe Raid, brought back by a wounded survivor, written off, resurected and then carried by my father in the Essex-Scottish and No. 4 Commando in 1943)

Ganderite said:
Two vets served their country. One fought the length of Italy until VE day. The other was a guard at a ammo factory in Toronto.

Which, in your heart, gets the most respect?

Two rifles. One looks like it also fought the length of Italy. The other looks unissued.

We wish one of them could talk. Why don't we respect it more?
Click to expand...
 
A No.4 has two serial numbered parts (bolt and receiver). A K98, a G43 has many more numbered parts. A Garand has one number that matters; any others prove it is mixmaster. SKSs have varying numbered parts. You've asked the wrong question if you want a straight answer.

The other day I was prepping a rifle for sale. I needed to gather up the right parts for that gun, and not mix up parts from another one. Fortunately, the serial number is only four digits and most of them were repeated, but not on the trigger guard for some reason. What I also looked for was the maker's mark. If I had the right little marking, then if the part wasn't serialized at least it came from the right plant. This worked out fine in this situation, but another rifle would have a different manufacturing history.

Longbranch for example freely and unashamedly used a lot of Savage parts at the plant, but not British parts. Well, maybe not after they got the lines running efficiently. Who really knows? An Italian Beretta Garand will have little PBs on everything, but a USGI Garand will have a slightly less rigourous range of parts. A wartime Garand has to be read with one eye on the reference books to track the drawing numbers and heat lots.
 
Mismatched bolt k98 rifles don't bother me in the least. Documented proof of either surrendering Germans or victorious Allied troops pulling bolts out of the rifles and stacking (or throwing) them in a pile.
 
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