Optics on Swiss Arms Rifles...

KungFooBob

KungFooBob

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I've been reading about the Swiss Arms PE90s (Classic Green and Black Specials.)

If I buy one I will probably want to put an optic on it.

Is the integrated rail on a Black Special significantly better than an aftermarket rail on a Classic Green?

I know you can mount optics a little lower on a Black Special. Does a Black special let you avoid needing an (expensive) cheek riser?

Do the Black Specials have integrated BUIS? (I thought they did, but I don't know why I thought that...)

Also, I know the Classic Green are somewhat available with 7"-twist barrels. Has TSE ever brought in Black Specials with 7"-twist barrels?

Thanks in advance for your comments.


KFB
 
KungFooBob said:
I've been reading about the Swiss Arms PE90s (Classic Green and Black Specials.)

If I buy one I will probably want to put an optic on it.

Is the integrated rail on a Black Special significantly better than an aftermarket rail on a Classic Green?
Click to expand...

If by better you mean a more stable mount, then a rail machined into a receiver is generally more stable than an afterthought add on on any gun.

By your post, I am assuming you want a medium-long distance optic and not a CQB optic, so I would say yes.

As irons are a thing for me, I would personally choose to opt for the regular profile with add on rail. I find the diopter and ring arrangement very suitable to my needs.


KungFooBob said:
Do the Black Specials have integrated BUIS? (I thought they did, but I don't know why I thought that...)
Click to expand...

I think it is a receiver-flush, flip up peep sight.


KungFooBob said:
I know you can mount optics a little lower on a Black Special. Does a Black special let you avoid needing an (expensive) cheek riser?
Click to expand...

Depends on if you want cheek weld, chin weld or don't care. Note the Aimpoint Micro below. To get proper co-witness with irons, I had to mount it on the slightly lower quad rail.

On a flat top, the two rails are actually flush.

In this setup, I get a good cheek weld. No riser required.
DSCF0342.JPG



Contrast that with this other setup.

In this arrangement on an LT-104 mount, I get a chin weld. A smaller guy might require/desire a cheek rest.

IMG_3497sm.JPG


On a flat top with no rear diopter sight in the way, you could mount on lower profile rings.

This would certainly get you closer to a full cheek weld, but you would need to test and decide that for yourself.
 
KungFooBob said:
I've been reading about the Swiss Arms PE90s (Classic Green and Black Specials.)

If I buy one I will probably want to put an optic on it.

Is the integrated rail on a Black Special significantly better than an aftermarket rail on a Classic Green?
Click to expand...

Not really. The rail mounting for the models with the diopter are very solid.
As you indicate, the integrated rail is lower. It is 6 and half dozen as far as the 'better' part, but if you run an optic you are likely not going to 'regress' to irons. With optics installed, the Black Special is definately 'cleaner looking' - if that means something.
However, there is a bolt on target diopter that you can add to the rail of the Black Special which effectively makes it the better of the traditional 'Classic Green'. This diopter has added appeture inserts for target shooting, but are not cheap (~$550).


KungFooBob said:
I know you can mount optics a little lower on a Black Special. Does a Black special let you avoid needing an (expensive) cheek riser?
Click to expand...

Yes, they do allow you to mount optics much lower and it is possible to have the centerline of the scope line up with where the irons would be. A proper cheekweld can be obtained, and you can ditch the comb riser.

070118002.jpg


KungFooBob said:
Do the Black Specials have integrated BUIS? (I thought they did, but I don't know why I thought that...)
Click to expand...

Yes they do. The rear appeture is a folding type that is housed in the rear of the rail - very slick.

KungFooBob said:
Also, I know the Classic Green are somewhat available with 7"-twist barrels. Has TSE ever brought in Black Specials with 7"-twist barrels?
Click to expand...

To my knowledge all of the Black Specials were 1:10, however there are some 1:7 twist barrels floating around (I think maybe TSE still has one or two?) that were built to NATO specs. The above BS has been rebarreled to 1:7
 
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I'll be getting a Classic Green soon. I was wondering how the aftermarket rail system attaches to the rifle? I looked at one at P&D and it looked to me like a chunk of picatinny rail.
 
retepnosflow said:
Uncle Walther you are an SA Addict & I'm Catching up with you!!!!!
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Yeah, I definitely have a problem. Expensive tastes, and limited resources. I need to sell one of my SAN rifles, as I can't justify keeping four. Reluctantly put the 14.3 in the EE. Might change my mind about that.
 
UncleWalther said:
The flat-top models will reduce the height of the optics by about 8mm I think
Click to expand...

Not counting the diopter, you are right. With the diopter in place it is around another inch or so.

Roughneck12, which aftermarket rail are you refering to; the top short rail over the receiver or the one that replaces the forward handguard?

The top rail slides into a dovetail on the forward portion of the top receiver, and tightens into a recess in the front of the diopter.

The railed handguard fits up to the front receiver pin and has a 'barreled pin' (for lack of correct terminology) that slides into the bayonet lug mount. This 'pin' helps index the rail into the gas block as well.

There are no springs of any kind on either the B&T rail or the top rail.
 
beltfed said:
Not counting the diopter, you are right. With the diopter in place it is around another inch or so.

Roughneck12, which aftermarket rail are you refering to; the top short rail over the receiver or the one that replaces the forward handguard?

The top rail slides into a dovetail on the forward portion of the top receiver, and tightens into a recess in the front of the diopter.

The railed handguard fits up to the front receiver pin and has a 'barreled pin' (for lack of correct terminology) that slides into the bayonet lug mount. This 'pin' helps index the rail into the gas block as well.

There are no springs of any kind on either the B&T rail or the top rail.
Click to expand...

I meant spring loaded pin on the B&T handgaurd, as it has to have some sort of spring underneath it!!!!
 
I have mine set up this way: 14.3" carbine, Kyle Precision rail, 3x ACOG Compact (TA50R-4 Red Crosshair), A.R.M.S. #19 S mount (mounted backwards to get the proper eye relief with this sight... which is only 1.4" ... which then puts the throw lever on the wrong side in my view... have to be conscious of not hitting it with your hand when using the charging handle).

Great rifle, great rail, great sight, good mount ... however, adding them all together does not produce an optimum system - certainly not in terms of dollar value invested. The sight just sits too high I guess.

The issue has "solved" itself, in a sense, though, as the ACOG Compact is going over to mate-up with my new M4-type rifle. For the Swiss, the Kyle rail stays (I don't think there is anything better) but I go back to the drawing board in terms of optics. Probably shoot it just with irons for the time being. Optics is a lot trickier a problem with Swiss than with something like an AR (which most of the cool optics are specifically designed around).

005-1.jpg


Roughneck12 said:
I was wondering how the aftermarket rail system attaches to the rifle?
Click to expand...

I have the Kyle rail, but presumably all makes attach in a very similar/same way. On the top of the receiver, at the front, right before the handguard... you will see a trapazoid shaped thing (a dovetail), wider toward the the front of the gun and narrower toward the rear. It has a Swiss cross on it. Well the rails have a cut-out in the same shape on the bottom/front. You slide the rail onto that, and then there is a "bolt" that fits into a dimple on the front of the diopter housing. You just tighten that bolt/nut thing back until everything is secure. Then there are two small hex screws on either side which you tighten up to prevent the main bolt from working loose. When the rail is installed, it does not touch the top of the receiver, except on the dovetail and where the bolt fits into the dimple.

You can sort of see the dovetail in this photo:
Pe905.jpg


You can see the nut that push back against the diopter housing in this shot:
006-2.jpg
 
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beltfed said:
I'm not pickin' up what you're puttin' down.
I have a B&T rail on my Black Special - there's no spring:confused:
Click to expand...

The spring loaded pin or keeper that goes into the forearm flange behind the gas system, yes B&T, I have one on my CQB, unless they are different from each other in some design.
P9010104.jpg

My mistake there are 2 spring loaded pins that push the rail back to lock the bottom peice and lines up the hole to connect the lower, Sorry if I did not explain it right, I new what I wanted to say but I guess until I took the picture I was not sure how to explain it correctly. It's always easier when your looking at it!!! Retep.
 
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I'm about a week away from moving my Mark 4 3.5-10x from my 300 WM to my Black Special Target. Looking forward to playing with it at that point. Now to find some 60gr Partition loads to drill a caribou with!
 
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