Oversized cast bullets-need advice

Rick said:
Bore/groove diameter has nothing to do with it - except perhaps accidentally. The fit that matters the most is the fit of the bullet into the ball seate/leade. Trust me on this part: when the bullet moves past the ball seate/leade and gets to the bore and grooves, it will swage down to whatever dimensions they happen to have.
Click to expand...

X2

I don't know where the groove + 0.001-0.002" idea came from, but I'd call that the minimum you want.

Neck size with a seated bullet is your limiting factor. I size mine to be as large as will comfortably chamber, e.g. chamber diameter - 0.001". You want reliable chambering, and you don't want pinched necks.
 
Canuck44 said:
Rick of course you are right, however, you got to sit back a bit and smell the roses. First his Win 94 is not a bench rest gun. If it still has it's buckhorn sights on it minute of angle acuracy is not going to be within his reach anyway.

He stated he is sizing his bullets to .307 which is just not going to be condusive to accuracy and will cause leading. Whether or not he ever casts his chamber or not is of little consequence IF his bullets are undersized and the rule of thumb regarding the size of bullet relative to the bore/groove diameter is not a bad one and is a good starting point. Now if he sizes his bullets to .309/.310 and still gets leading using gas checks then we can move up the learning curve and start talking about casting his chamber. For now though if he loads his bullets out to the rifling or to the maximum point they will chamber properly in his lever gun and bangs away it around 1800 fps or less he should be good to go.

As an aisde my Husquavarna Husky with a scope from a rest will shoot under 1/2" at 100 yards and I am loathe to do a casting of it's chamber to chase the next thou of reduction in diameter...others might I won't. Bullets are sized .309.

Water drpped WW using GC will work fine in his Winnie and if properly sized should give his loads of trouble free fun.

As to water droping boolits just keep your water bucket two feet or so from your melter and below it and he should be fine. Water and molten lead DO NOT MIX as you well know but with just a little care one can avoid any mishaps. Water quenching is an effective method of increasing the hardness of your bullets and my experience with pistol bullets and for semi serious paper punching with a rifle there is no practical difference in water dropping them from the mold or using an oven later.


Take Care

Bob

You bench rest shooters get unglued way to easy. Life ain't all that hard.
Click to expand...


WHAT HE SAID
 
Holy crap...what have I started into?????? :D
I'm just a cheapskate who wants to try and save a few pennies and try making his own bullets. An up and comming champion target shooter, I ain't. I like to go out to the range to do a little blasting. I go just as much to get out of the house and chat with the guys as I do to go shooting.
If I can overcharge some light, spear point bullets and make it hit a 2 foot target on the 400 yard backstop, cool, I tried it, probably won't try it again for a long time. I do a lot of "one off" experimenting with my good ol 30-30. It hasn't blown up and taken half my head with it, so I'm happy. Life is short, and I'm here to play :) I should add that I never put the safety of others at risk. If there's somebody else on the range and I've got something "interesting" loaded up that I haven't tried before, I'll wait until they leave.

To clarify a few points... It's a Winchester Model 94 lever action 30-30 that I bought new in the late 80's or early 90's
I treat it like a sailor on his last night in port treats a cheap Cambodian hooker on a drunken Saturday night LOL!!! I've put overcharged rounds through it...I've dropped it (not since the new scope went on though)...it has a 20 inch, semi-straight barrel with a semi-tight stock.....no electrical tape holding things together (YET!!!) :D
I put a scope on it because I'm too bloody blind to see the back sight anymore. I even had to go with an illuminated recticle because of my colour blindness (I do use this thing for hunting). Anyone who says that I would ever be able to shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards, even with a pure custom target rifle, either has a broken tape measure, or is dreaming. I have a little shake in my hands that just doesn't go away....ever. I can still put one into the side of a deer at 100 yards and at 50 yards or less, I'll still go for a head shot :D
I'm your classic Uncle Dave type guy. You know uncle Dave......the guy you go to pick up on the first day of moose season....He says "oh, is it moose season already???....I rumage around in the kitchen drawer, pull out a half dozen shells of whatever grain, that were bought who knows when, grab the same old 30-30 that I hunt everything from squirrels to cape buffalo with, I rummage around the pile of papers on the top of the fridge until I find my hunting licence, throw on the orange hat and off we go. If we get something, great....if not....oh well....LOL!!!
I melted down the last of my lead dive weights. I've got about 500 bullets made up, rammed though the sizing die, and they're lubed. If I hit paper with them, great. If I have to ram a bore brush through it 20 times every 20 shots just to get the bullet through...oh well. Look at the bright side....eventually all that lead in the barrel will start to take up the gap between the grooves and the bullets. LOL. If there's still some some lands showing to give the bullet a little spin, great :D
Anyway, I'm taking my undersized, too soft, slightly cockeyed bullets and my "slightly used" 30-30 to the range tomorrow. If it doesn't blow up on me, I'll have a great day, regardless of the results. :) I'll let you all know how it went when I get home tomorrow night :) Take care guys.

Dennis.....
 
Last edited:
blacksmithden said:
Holy crap...what have I started into?????? :D
I'm just a cheapskate who wants to try and save a few pennies and try making his own bullets. An up and comming champion target shooter, I ain't. I like to go out to the range to do a little blasting. I go just as much to get out of the house and chat with the guys as I do to go shooting.
If I can overcharge some light, spear point bullets and make it hit a 2 foot target on the 400 yard backstop, cool, I tried it, probably won't try it again for a long time. I do a lot of "one off" experimenting with my good ol 30-30. It hasn't blown up and taken half my head with it, so I'm happy. Life is short, and I'm here to play :) I should add that I never put the safety of others at risk. If there's somebody else on the range and I've got something "interesting" loaded up that I haven't tried before, I'll wait until they leave.

To clarify a few points... It's a Winchester Model 94 lever action 30-30 that I bought new in the late 80's or early 90's
I treat it like a sailor on his last night in port treats a cheap Cambodian hooker on a drunken Saturday night LOL!!! I've put overcharged rounds through it...I've dropped it (not since the new scope went on though)...it has a 20 inch, semi-straight barrel with a semi-tight stock.....no electrical tape holding things together (YET!!!) :D
I put a scope on it because I'm too bloody blind to see the back sight anymore. I even had to go with an illuminated recticle because of my colour blindness (I do use this thing for hunting). Anyone who says that I would ever be able to shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards, even with a pure custom target rifle, either has a broken tape measure, or is dreaming. I have a little shake in my hands that just doesn't go away....ever. I can still put one into the side of a deer at 100 yards and at 50 yards or less, I'll still go for a head shot :D
I'm your classic Uncle Dave type guy. You know uncle Dave......the guy you go to pick up on the first day of moose season....He says "oh, is it moose season already???....I rumage around in the kitchen drawer, pull out a half dozen shells of whatever grain, that were bought who knows when, grab the same old 30-30 that I hunt everything from squirrels to cape buffalo with, I rummage around the pile of papers on the top of the fridge until I find my hunting licence, throw on the orange hat and off we go. If we get something, great....if not....oh well....LOL!!!
I melted down the last of my lead dive weights. I've got about 500 bullets made up, rammed though the sizing die, and they're lubed. If I hit paper with them, great. If I have to ram a bore brush through it 20 times every 20 shots just to get the bullet through...oh well. Look at the bright side....eventually all that lead in the barrel will start to take up the gap between the grooves and the bullets. LOL. If there's still some some lands showing to give the bullet a little spin, great :D
Anyway, I'm taking my undersized, too soft, slightly cockeyed bullets and my "slightly used" 30-30 to the range tomorrow. If it doesn't blow up on me, I'll have a great day, regardless of the results. :) I'll let you all know how it went when I get home tomorrow night :) Take care guys.

Dennis.....
Click to expand...

If theres areas you run into a snag on PM me and we'll keep it down to earth bro. Best of luck...By the way YOU started a GREAT topic....The rest I'll reserve comment
 
What he said. Send me an PM and I have some loads I have developed for my Winnie you might want to try. Great fun plinking with the 30-30 using cast.

Take Care

Bob
 
Ok....here's the big bad range report on my home made lead.


FAILURE!!!! :)

First off, I should mention, I think my poor old 30-30's just seen a bit too much action. With the barrel dead cold, shooting out of a vice, it won't group any smaller than 6 inches at 100 yards. It doesn't matter if I'm shooting home brewed ammo, or factory. I tried a couple of different loads, as well as factory ammo, and it didn't make a difference. Also, about every 6th or 7th shot just goes wild and misses the paper all together.

As for my (not so) trusty home made slugs. I would get about every 4th or 5th one to touch paper, but they were all over the place. A curious thing hapened as well. Every shot blew out quite a lot of grey "smoke". It's not powder, because it's the same powder (IMR3031) that I've been using for all of my loads. I'm sure it's vapourized lead from the blow by due to the bullets being a bit undersized. I also suspect that the edges of the slug are being ripped off by the rifling because it can't get a good bite. Instead of getting a twist on the bullet, it's slipping down the barrel, and the sheared off bits are being blown out the barrel.
The range was pretty busy yesterday, so I didn't want to put too much of that crap in the air with everybody around once I figured out what it was. I shot off a half dozen or so, then fired copper jacketed stuff until everybody had left. Even then, I only ran off about 30 more before giving up.

One other interesting thing. I took all of my factory made, home loaded cartridges (130gr soft spear points) and dipped them in my own home brewed lube to see what would hapen. I had about 250 loaded up, and shot them all day. An older fella who was shooting beside me comes over and says..." this may seem funny, but I can see your shots going down the range".
I laughed and explained to him that it's the lube from the bullets that he's seeing.....it was acting kind of like a poor boys tracer :D
I did however do what I had wanted it to. I didn't have to clean the barrel all day, and it was just as shiny as could be when I was done!!!! NO deposits of lead or powder at all. One patch at the end of the day produced almost nothing.

My home brewed lube if anyone wants to try making their own is pretty high tech stuff, but you can give it a try if you dare. 75% bees wax and 25% bacon grease. Now, here comes the tricky part. Heat them both, mix them together and give it a little stir. I diped my fingers in the warm liquid, and just spun the bullet between them, depositing a light film. I told ya it was high tech!!! :D The stuff goes solid, just like wax should when it cools, it doesn't really smell like bacon, and it's been sitting out in the garage for about 2 weeks now, and there's nothing funky growing on top, so I guess it's stable.

Anyway guys, the young fella is waiting for me to go outside and play, so I had better get going.
I'm not ready to write off the 30-30 just yet, and if anyone wants to shoot me some of their "found to be more accuate than most" loads, I'd love to give them a try. The place I shop seems to always have IMR3031 and WIN748 in stock, but everything else is hit and miss, but I'll try anything :D
Thanks again for all the advice guys. Experiments are always fun, even if they fail :D
 
OK well that'll be a big help Rick. Thanks for your effort....

As for the casr 30-30, I'd love to see what bullet/load your using so far. Like I said before the toughest of alloys and bullet designs is still a fragile thing to get going down the rifling accrately. This is why I was telling you that the bullets NEED to be of harder alloy than lead and tin. You really are making glorified musket balls there,,(I'm not kidding) You gotta get the lead out LOL and wheel weights in. Drop them in water outta the mold taking care that not a molecule of water can fly back into the hot pot. Then let em sit atleast one week. When you do this you ten times further ahead. If your bullets are soft which I know they are load development dont mean diddles. And cast with a rough bore. I mean bro. lets put it this way if your going to start with so so so many ingredients for disaster let me know when you wanta sell off your pot, I can always use a spare. My guess would be that this spray you talk of is lube. On rare occasion I've had that. I'd be very surprised if your seeing lead fragments..You dont mention any hitting in keyhole fashion. This is a good thing

Now go back and look at Rick's pics cause if we all posted animal pics that would help you far more...Ok Rick you stand here whilst I get the trajectory right



:( ....................... :jerkit:
Immature but required. Oh there'll me cryin to the mods over this one
 
Last edited:
blacksmithden

weebull nailed the smoke issue. Most likely just the lube burning off as it should.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php is a great source for info on casting loads for your 30-30 and 10 minutes there will save you a lot of frustration.

10 Gr of Unique will drive that bullet at around 1450 fps on avg with standartd deviation of 11. The load is a great little plinking load and is accurate in my 30-30 out to 50 yards. I still have the original buckhorn sights on the gun which, with my eyes, limits any call on accuracy. I have also used WC735, a surplus powder from Higginsons, under the bullet with good sucess. 25 gr pushs the bullet out at around 1975 with a SD of 9in my rifle. This load is accurate out to hundred yards.

All my bullets are water quenched out of the mold and gas checked. I size them .309. cartridge length is 2.560 with a very mild crimp. I use wheelweights as my alloy and occasionally will add a little 50-50 solder to aid in mold fill out. I have yet to experience any leading. I use Felix lube in all my applications (Rifle & handgun). The formula is located on the cast bullet forum. It is a soft lube and has worked for me in both my rifles and handguns. Since you are into making your own lube you might want to try making up a batch.

There are several very good articles on that forum and in particular this one should give you some idea as to powders to look into.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425

Rick:

Nice picture suspect good eating. Well done. blacksmithden is crawling right now, lets try to get him walking before we put him in a sports car. Whether or not he decides to pursue the silver stream or toss it all and take up badminton is an issue for him to decide. His recent experience will either drive him further into the witch craft we call castng or send him back to the mundane world of jacketed bullets or worse yet factory rounds. I suspect the former.


Take Care

Bob
 
Blacksmithden
the only knowledge I regret I cannot extend is 30-30 specific as it is just not in my armory. Most cast knowledge is useable throughout the caliber ranges. I typically stay to the bigger calibers, mostly in straight wall cases, simply because their easier, and bigger calibers allow for bigger frontal areas to which I am a fan. As canuck says, try to do things in batches, continuity is your friend in casting
 
Canuck44 said:
Nice picture suspect good eating.


Bob
Click to expand...

The roosevelt I shot some 4 yrs ago with cast in the 45/110 was 7x7 with a kicker on the right. All estimates in said aprox 1100lbs. Shot was 311 yards on range finder. Wasnt spooked, went down fairly cold, shot nicked heart and busted far shoulder. That monster hung like forever. We're not all that long done chewing that monster into us...Nice trophy yes, but waksupi on boolits is right when he says one that size is good fer patching your car tires. Some exageration there, but I've found with hooved animals, its good eats or good trophy. It seldom fits both bills perfectly


Yours dont look much good for either Rick
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom