P14 reference material

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Potashminer

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I am working with a number of Pattern 1914 (P14) rifles. So far I have a "W", an "ERA" and two "RE". I am having not much luck trying to find reference material that details which parts got marked how by the three makers - Winchester, Eddystone and Remington.

I found most of this for the M1917 rifles - the "U.S. Model of 1917" - aka P17. References I found for the M1917 include:

"m1903.com" - go under "Markings" and click on M1917 - chart pops up listing the individual M1917 parts that were marked, and how, by the three makers - click on the part name and a line drawing of that part pos up, showing where on the part each maker put their mark.

"The U.S. Enfield" by Ian Skinnerton - good discussion about the earlier P13, and then a fair bit about M1917, but not much helpful detail about P14's

"Pattern 1914 and U.S. Model of 1917 Rifles" by Charles Stratton - pretty much my "go to" reference, but lacking detail on specific parts - often writes "parts are identical, and differ only by markings" - does not identify "what" markings to look for.

"United States Rifle Model of 1917" by C.S.Ferris. Quite detailed. Great reference for M1917 collectors, but, not surprisingly, not a lot about the P14's.

So, any suggestions about where to find similar information and detail about the P14's would be greatly appreciated.
 
Hi Pot. I go by W for Winchester, R for Remington, E for Eddystone on parts. If you can't find a letter then assume its universal. I am
fortunate to own a copy of the "Handbook of the Enfield Pattern, 1914" issued July, 1916 which has no info pertinent to your inquiry. I also
have Jan. 1918 "Instructions For Care and Repair of Rifles, Magazine, .303 in. Pattern 1914" (armourers manual) that refers to parts exactly as the butt stock markings - i.E. - - W, RE, and ERA. To brag I also have the armourers manual on the sniper P-14 with P1918 scope. So you
won't find info from Brit official sources that I am familiar with. Sorry to be incapable of hitting the nail. John
 
Thanks for reply. So far as I know, there were only those three manufacturers, each working, for much of their production period, to their own drawings from reverse engineering that they each did separately, of a sample rifle that each received from the British. So far as I can tell, there were no "universal" parts made - unless they are someone's more modern reproduction parts. I have an upper band that came in a bag of otherwise "W" M1917 parts that has a faint "DP" on the side, under a re-finish of some sort, with a "W" where it is supposed to be (bottom), an "E" where the "E" is supposed to be (side), and something indecipherable where the "R" is supposed to be (rear). But I doubt any "real" original part ever had all three maker's marks. I had read that sometimes a part got missed in the marking scheme. Not all M1917 parts that should have eagle head marks actually did get eagle head marks. Erroneous information exists - the m1903.com website shows that correct M1917 Remington butt plate trap doors are "blank", not "R", yet I have one marked "R". So is that an error by that writer, or is that "R" trapdoor supposed to be on an "R" P14. Hence the desire to find a reference!
 
Hi again Pot. Most firearm manufacturers did not make ALL of their own parts. Some sub-contractors may have supplied both ERA and
Remington with the same part (thus universal). I would expect to find the simple stamp of W,R, or E to be consistent with new manufactured arms. But what you have a 100 years later could have been in many different hands to find a working solution to a problem. WW1 era manufacture no matter what rifle you are looking at may not have consistency in marks. They did that on purpose just to piss off collectors.
What collectors seem to want the most are nice stock markings and the correct rifle in that stock. JOHN
 
Ha! I think the real "piss off collectors" guy is the home handyman who cuts off the top half off a battle sight aperture, to make a "U" sight, on a P14 matching serial numbered rear sight body. Many mismatched parts around, but only one sight body with the serial number that matches that receiver!! His stuff, he can do what he wants with it, but then down the road it is offered for sale, what, as "all numbers matching"???
I fully understand the military of the time gauging parts to find which met standard, then using whatever came out of that tray when that part was needed. A significant number of the parts do swap seamlessly among the E, W and R P14's but many that I have do not, at least not without alterations. Stratton and Ferris books mention parts being salvaged and hand fitted to "make do" - to the extent that Stratton reports that the British military altered M1917 firing pins to fit and to use in the P14's, a swap that is not normally possible.
 
Potashminer said:
Ha! I think the real "piss off collectors" guy is the home handyman who cuts off the top half off a battle sight aperture, to make a "U" sight, on a P14 matching serial numbered rear sight body. Many mismatched parts around, but only one sight body with the serial number that matches that receiver!! His stuff, he can do what he wants with it, but then down the road it is offered for sale, what, as "all numbers matching"???
I fully understand the military of the time gauging parts to find which met standard, then using whatever came out of that tray when that part was needed. A significant number of the parts do swap seamlessly among the E, W and R P14's but many that I have do not, at least not without alterations. Stratton and Ferris books mention parts being salvaged and hand fitted to "make do" - to the extent that Stratton reports that the British military altered M1917 firing pins to fit and to use in the P14's, a swap that is not normally possible.
Click to expand...

A buddy & I (we were the ultimate "pi$$ of the collector" kitchen table "customizers way back when before most of the collectors now were even born) changed parts from manufacturer to manufacturer & model to model quite regularly with our "creations". One of the "upgrades we gave every gun weather it was W,R or E marked was to change the firing pin to what was sold by Numerich as a "Speed Lock" firing pin & bolt head conversion, changing them from push cocking to #### on opening rifles. We used probably a dozen of these and I cant remember ever having a problem in any of the model/manufacturer's we used.

I still have 6 or 8 actions in various states of "remodeling" in a tool box under my bench...but you would cry just looking at them now...
 
I actually didn't do the measuring, but Stratton's explanation was that P14 have .055" diameter firing pin tips, and M1917 have .070" firing pin tips, and the M1917 won't fit through the hole on a P14 bolt - otherwise apparently identical pieces.
And, just to date myself, I am sure the first time I took a file and hacksaw to a Lee Enfield No. 4, was prior to 1970...
 
The parts I know of that are different between the P14 and the M1917 are the bolt, firing pin, extractor, trigger guard, follower, magazine box, and rear sight.

I forgot the Bolt Stop Spring Rest.


This is a good sight (as you mentioned) ht tp://m1903.com/m1917markings.htm
 
I think that you will find most everything except the mounting screw is different on the bolt stop between P14 and M1917. Front inner surface of P14 stop is curved; that area is flat on the M1917. Ejectors are different shape. Bolt Stop Spring different shape (to go with the different rest as mentioned). Trigger and sear appear the same. Safety and it's bits appear the same. Rear sight main body have different increments, are different lengths. Rear sight spring and screw are the same. And so on - but even if identical shape, often "marked differently". For example, M1917 trigger and sear almost always have eagle head inspection marks; P14 can not have those marks, since never accepted by American Ordinance, although those parts are identical size and shape, and fully interchangeable.
 
From another site, a reference book was suggested - "P-17 The American Enfield" by J.C. Harrison. I bought a copy through Amazon.com. Despite the title, it has a surprising amount of information about the P-14's, including a listing of the 37 "Prime Marked Parts" that are found on the three maker's P-14's. And, to be expected, I assume, the listing of parts marking given for M1917 does not 100% agree with either the Stratton or the m1903.com listings (which do not agree themselves). Competing "authorities", I guess... Harrison does discuss "fakes" and suspect markings - I have a "front band" aka "nose cap" - the part at the front that holds the front of front hand guard to the stock fore arm end - obviously "refinished" with some sort of coating - a faint "DP" visible on the side in the right light, a "W" in the correct font where a "W" is supposed to be, plus an "E" in the correct font where the "E" is supposed to be and something unreadable on the rear where the "R" is supposed to be. I doubt very much that the part was originally stamped that way!!
 
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