Learned something new. I had always assumed that PH used a one piece patent breech in their Enfield rifled musket reproductions. Not so. The barrel is threaded externally. It is threaded into a breech sleeve which incorporates the nipple seat. Shoulders inside and outside. There is then a conventional breechplug which screws into the breech sleeve, and butts up against the breech face of the barrel.
Parker Hale Enfield Breeching
- Thread starter tiriaq
- Start date
Most of the PH's I've seen have been as new or very close to it. A very nicely made item they are.
The story out there used to be that they used the old Enfield tooling and everything was like original....I take it you're saying it's not?
The story out there used to be that they used the old Enfield tooling and everything was like original....I take it you're saying it's not?
Interesting, I'd have thought it would be easier to use an original patent breech design. I have an as-new PH P1853 3-band en-route, will check it out when I get it. Do you see the seam for the sleeved area around the nipple boss? Or is it polished to a near-invisible line?
Either way, if fitted well, it should be just as strong - probably stronger as they used steel vice iron.
As for the PH tale, you can still buy new PH Enfields, but they are now made in Italy for Navy Arms using the PH gauge set. The fit and finish is not as nice as when PH made the guns in Birmingham before 1990.
The late Herd Woodend loaned the P1853, 4th model master gauge set to Parker Hale and they produced a slave set of gauges with which to build their replica. The original set was returned to Enfield Lock in 1978.
A lot of American re-enactors have a love/hate relationship with the PH reproductions, mainly because they reproduced a regulation War Department 4th model, which was never used in the American Civil War. The ACW guns were London Armory Co. and Birmingham sub-contractor-produced 3rd models. Unlike the 4th model Enfield, there was no parts interchangeability an each gone was hand-fitted. The barrel bands and lock plate designs were different, along with the lock plate nail escutcheons.
Interestingly, the 4th model P1853 was barely used by the British forces either. Most sat in stores until they were converted some years later to Snider-Enfields.
The story that they used RSAF Enfield tooling is just myth. That tooling was long gone by the 1970's. They did use the same gauges, which means PH muskets interchange parts with original 4th models and most snider-Enfields as well. They are also the only copy I know of with progressive-depth rifling like the originals.
Either way, if fitted well, it should be just as strong - probably stronger as they used steel vice iron.
As for the PH tale, you can still buy new PH Enfields, but they are now made in Italy for Navy Arms using the PH gauge set. The fit and finish is not as nice as when PH made the guns in Birmingham before 1990.
The late Herd Woodend loaned the P1853, 4th model master gauge set to Parker Hale and they produced a slave set of gauges with which to build their replica. The original set was returned to Enfield Lock in 1978.
A lot of American re-enactors have a love/hate relationship with the PH reproductions, mainly because they reproduced a regulation War Department 4th model, which was never used in the American Civil War. The ACW guns were London Armory Co. and Birmingham sub-contractor-produced 3rd models. Unlike the 4th model Enfield, there was no parts interchangeability an each gone was hand-fitted. The barrel bands and lock plate designs were different, along with the lock plate nail escutcheons.
Interestingly, the 4th model P1853 was barely used by the British forces either. Most sat in stores until they were converted some years later to Snider-Enfields.
The story that they used RSAF Enfield tooling is just myth. That tooling was long gone by the 1970's. They did use the same gauges, which means PH muskets interchange parts with original 4th models and most snider-Enfields as well. They are also the only copy I know of with progressive-depth rifling like the originals.
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I'm assuming it was a production decision based on the machinery they had available and how the production line was configured.
How did you find out tiriaq? Did you try to remove a breech plug and instead have the whole sleeve turn off?
Another factoid, is that the stock duplicating machines in Birmingham were too short to turn a P1853 stock, supposedly they had Lee-Enfield duplicating machines. All PH P1853's made in Birmingham have a finger-joint splice beneath the rearmost barrel band. In most cases, it's well enough done that the owners don't even know about it. The new Italian-produced PH muskets have one-piece stocks.
How did you find out tiriaq? Did you try to remove a breech plug and instead have the whole sleeve turn off?
Another factoid, is that the stock duplicating machines in Birmingham were too short to turn a P1853 stock, supposedly they had Lee-Enfield duplicating machines. All PH P1853's made in Birmingham have a finger-joint splice beneath the rearmost barrel band. In most cases, it's well enough done that the owners don't even know about it. The new Italian-produced PH muskets have one-piece stocks.
I am planning on making a reproduction of a late percussion Northwest Gun, which used an Enfield style breech and lock.
Was looking for a scrap original P'53 barrel from which to scavenge the breech. Was offered a breech set from a PH which had been broken for its barrel, which was fitted to a Snider action.
Never would have suspected that the PHs were made this way if I hadn't seen the parts.
Was looking for a scrap original P'53 barrel from which to scavenge the breech. Was offered a breech set from a PH which had been broken for its barrel, which was fitted to a Snider action.
Never would have suspected that the PHs were made this way if I hadn't seen the parts.
Kind of a shame to break apart a nice PH 1853 to rebarrel a common Snider, but Oh well. That being said, Stoeger Canada can get replacement Pedersoli 1853 barrels as replacement parts, would be a fun project to rebarrel a shot-out MkIII snider and have the action re-cased, etc. Might have to add that to me "for one day" list.
Did some experimental threading on the lathe on some scrap stock. The internal threads for the barrel in the breech piece are 14tpi; diameter is in the neighbourhood of 7/8. If I go ahead with the project, I will machine the barrel breech so that it is a snug fit to the breech collar, and so the breechplug sets up firmly against the barrel face.
What are you going to use for a bbl? I suspect a progressive-depth rifled .577 barrel would be a tough find. The modern stuff from Pedersoli and Armi Sport is button-rifled at continuous depth. Probably will work well enough, but the progressive-depth barrels like the PH has are legendary.
I anticipated some old-school "stacking-up" and room-entry....
lol - yeah, with one of those Troy Medieval muzzle brakes threaded on the spout.
No, this is a smoothbore project - a Northwest gun. AKA Indian Trade Gun. The HBC found it increasingly difficult to obtain flintlock guns by the 1870s, and went to a percussion pattern that used Enfield style parts. I have a 41" Northstar barrel. Octagon to round, 1" at the breech, 24 bore. Going from the measurements, once the breech sleeve is installed, there will be just enough meat to blend the octagon of the barrel into the breech. Currently the barrel is breeched with a 3/4 -16 plug. The rear 3/4" of the barrel will have to go. Guns were usually 2 1/2, 3 and 3 1/2 feet in the barrel. Don't know if I'll leave it long, or shorten it to 3'.
Forty years ago, I was involved in the manufacture of flintlock Northwest guns; still have some left over parts. The serpent is one for a flint gun, but the lug for the rear lock screw got broken off. I can add a lug in the correct position for the rear Enfield style percussion lock.
Forty years ago, I was involved in the manufacture of flintlock Northwest guns; still have some left over parts. The serpent is one for a flint gun, but the lug for the rear lock screw got broken off. I can add a lug in the correct position for the rear Enfield style percussion lock.
- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
Speaking of Enfield Trade Guns
Here is an old lady, it has the star/sun etched onto the barrel which, I have heard, means she was destined to go to Africa.
Here is an old lady, it has the star/sun etched onto the barrel which, I have heard, means she was destined to go to Africa.
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I have one of those. Turned up in the Peterborough ON area. I initially thought it was a shotgun made up using Enfield pattern parts. But now, I am sure that it is a Enfield pattern rifled musket commercially converted into a shotgun.
If it was a compass rose on the barrel, that was considered to be a good luck symbol to the Boers in South Africa. I have one on my muzzle loading elephant gun. I think I got the information from a black powder shooter in South Africa on a now defunct forum. Nice looking fowler, by the way.
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
Well, there are Sniders with bright, crisp, original barrels. I have a Mark III with a really sharp bore; being a III, that would be a purpose made steel barrel, rather than an altered rifled musket barrel. Have yet to shoot it. Maybe when there is a bit less snow on the range...
