Pat Rogers "Tier 1" Guns
- Thread starter blueblast
- Start date
Well fellers, the problem is the same with black rifles as it is for any sport: the pikers, morons and tools that want to set themselves up as some kind of 'authority' and turn the sport into some kind of pi$$ing match with themselves as some kind of elite.
This guy is one of my favourites. Meet the author of 'Why I Hate The AR15'. The article was famous on the internet for awhile and generated quite a bit of controversy. The AR15 was 'unreliable', it required expensive gunsmithing and an Act Of God to accurize, blah blah blah. Not knowing any better at the time - I took his writings as accurate. Looking back, I shouldn't have listened to him.
Today this idiot is building custom AR15's - and you all should drop everything, dig out your cheque book and place your order today! If you buy anything from this gun wh0re you deserve to get effed!
http://www.madogre.com/News.html
Not only that, he will learn ya everything you need to know about the tactical carbine - for a price.
Maybe our 17 year old friend is wrong, and maybe he's not, I don't know. All I know is that there are plenty of frauds and morons out there like George The Mad Ogre and that idiot Jim Zumbo or whatever his name is. I will trust you lot here before any of these self styled experts. At least the fellas worth listening to around here will back up their opinions with range reports.
This guy is one of my favourites. Meet the author of 'Why I Hate The AR15'. The article was famous on the internet for awhile and generated quite a bit of controversy. The AR15 was 'unreliable', it required expensive gunsmithing and an Act Of God to accurize, blah blah blah. Not knowing any better at the time - I took his writings as accurate. Looking back, I shouldn't have listened to him.
Today this idiot is building custom AR15's - and you all should drop everything, dig out your cheque book and place your order today! If you buy anything from this gun wh0re you deserve to get effed!
http://www.madogre.com/News.html
Not only that, he will learn ya everything you need to know about the tactical carbine - for a price.
Maybe our 17 year old friend is wrong, and maybe he's not, I don't know. All I know is that there are plenty of frauds and morons out there like George The Mad Ogre and that idiot Jim Zumbo or whatever his name is. I will trust you lot here before any of these self styled experts. At least the fellas worth listening to around here will back up their opinions with range reports.
He cannot train Canadian civilians if he wants to keep his business, before yapping know what you are talking about.
Pat's book on AR failures is legendary. He brought one of them (its multiple volume stuff) to a class in Florida (he was a student, as was I).
The biggest issue is a lot of people obviously have very little background in stats. A sample of 1 has no realy validity other than yes its your gun and thats it.
When you start getting a sample of several thousand guns, you've got a good baseline.
If in 250 out of 300 DPMS rifles on classes Pat has seen broken bolts -- that still means nothing unless the owners had records on the guns, and they could give data as to the failure point, for an example maybe the 250 owners all had around 10k out of a carbine bolt...
Pat takes the data as best as he can, however its not without its flaws.
The biggest issue is a lot of people obviously have very little background in stats. A sample of 1 has no realy validity other than yes its your gun and thats it.
When you start getting a sample of several thousand guns, you've got a good baseline.
If in 250 out of 300 DPMS rifles on classes Pat has seen broken bolts -- that still means nothing unless the owners had records on the guns, and they could give data as to the failure point, for an example maybe the 250 owners all had around 10k out of a carbine bolt...
Pat takes the data as best as he can, however its not without its flaws.
dangertree
Business Rep
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1: Stag Arms bolts are shot peened during manufacture. Where did it come from that they are not?
2: Stag Arms stakes the gas carrier key bolts from the top rather than the sides. The top strike is different from others, but secure and reliable and provides an easy witness mark. If it wasn't reliable, Stag wouldn't be offering a lifetime warranty on their rifles. Different, but certainly not "incorrect"
2: Stag Arms stakes the gas carrier key bolts from the top rather than the sides. The top strike is different from others, but secure and reliable and provides an easy witness mark. If it wasn't reliable, Stag wouldn't be offering a lifetime warranty on their rifles. Different, but certainly not "incorrect"
1: From that dumb 'Chart' everyone keeps throwing out. The chart also contain irrelevant requirements.
If the chart was redone adding correct info and leaving out the crap, Stag would be 'Up there' and be a kool-aid brand
1) I don't know where this came from but that's the information included on the notorious M4 chart...the chart describes a Stag Model 1 - do you know if they shot peen ALL bolts or is it just the models you import that you're speaking about?
2) I don't have enough experience with staking methods to comment but it's certainly possible their method works and just looks different enough from the standard that it gets assessed as "wrong".
I emailed Rob_s about his chart a few months ago and we had a brief conversation about it. I can say that he definitely attempts to ensure it accurately portrays the rifles it lists and that his chart is intended to be a tool for qualitatively assessing rifles, not a way to look more HSLD than the guy next to you.
My strong impression is that he is entirely interested in substance and not flash or branding and I am confident that if he was shown any sort of proof that he has incorrect information about any of the listed rifles he would be more than happy to correct the chart.
The chart is a good idea. The only other source of statistical data on failures is probably the manufacturer who wouldnt be likely to share this info with the public. The chart in question isnt perfect, but I dont see anybody else stepping up to the plate and doing this work. Makes for a good reference to get past all the anecdotal #### out there.
