Percussion revolver loaded?

[Scar270]

So if I load up the cylinder of a percussion revolver with powder, ball and cap then remove the cylinder with it still loaded. If I place the cylinder and remainder of the revolver into a case to transport it would it be considered loaded?

I can't see how it could be if the frame is the firearm and the cylinder is outside of the frame.

Checking with you guru's.

 

[dingus]

Id say Not Loaded till the Percusion caps are on the nipples and the cylinders in the gun.
But i could be totally wrong here thats a Guess OK
I dont shoot alot of Percussion Revolvers i only have one.

Oh you said Caps ON the Nipples on a loaded loose Cylinder!!!

Bad idea if you drop it the thing could go Off!

Id leave the CAPS OFF till your ready to shoot!

 

[mtallman]

Nope, wouldn't be loaded if it was completely off of the gun. You can transport pistols with loaded mags in the case (not in the gun), so this would be a similar issue.

However, if the cylinder was on the gun, loaded, but with no percussion caps, the gun would still be considered loaded.

In this day and age, you might want to transport the cylinder seperate from the pistol, as all LEO's might not know the specifics of the transport laws. Also, as Dingus mentioned, I would leave the caps off until you are ready to shoot.

Some guys should be along with exerpts from the Firearms Act shortly...

 

[Scar270]

I'd have to agree that leaving caps on the cylinder outside of the gun might not be the safest thing, was more hypothetical then something I'd do in practice.

mtallman why do you ay that loaded with no caps, cylinder in the gun it would be loaded? With a muzzleloading rifle it's not loaded till it's capped by my understanding. Is there a difference with pistols?

 

[MauserMike]

If you read the regs, they specifically exempt a muzzle loaded rifle as unloaded if the cap is off or the pan is not primed. No mention of any other black powder guns.

 

[mooncoon]

In BC, the exemption for muzzle loading long arms is found in the game regs and not the criminal code, unless I am mistaken. It allows you to transport muzzle loaders from site to site via logging roads while hunting but not on the pavement and stored at home.

cheers mooncoon

 

[Smokepole]

Mooncoon, check the BC regs ('07-'08) on page 17. Says the Criminal Code does not consider a loaded, but unprimed muzzleloader as loaded. Unless I'm missing something... should be considered unloaded anywhere in Canada if the regs are correct.

Oh BTW.... I wouldn't prime a loaded cylinder when not attached to the frame.... read that as gernade!!

 

[tiriaq]

A ml longarm can be transported between hunting sites with the barrel charged but without priming. It cannot be kept around with the barrel loaded.
As mentionned a detached charged and primed cylinder is dangerous. Personally, I do not consider this to be a safe practice. Have heard of three cases of a percussion gun firing without a cap on the nipple. Caps had been removed, leaving compound in the nipples. I think the only reason that the regulations allow transport of ml longarms with a charged barrel is that the good folks who wrote up the regulations didn't want to address the issue of unloading a ml gun. Note that the CFSC manual doesn't mention the topic.
I cannot see any reason to charge a cylinder for a caplock revolver and then transport it, removed from and accompanying the pistol, if for no other reason than there is no convenient easy way of unloading it without firing it.

 

[Sharps '63]

Loaded or Not

I'm the guy who had the BC Game regs make the statement about ML arms NOT being "loaded" if unprimed, percussion or flint. It is in compliance with federal and provincial laws, which cannot weaken the former.

Yes, it can happen that a flinter can fire if the flint is snapped on an empty pan, but if the shooter had a clue, he'd have a frizzen cover for safety and to keep it's face dry in wet weather. Nothing is fool proof in the hands of a fool.

As for a percussion gun, short of dropping it into a fire or being incredibly stupid with smoking materials, I fail to see how it could fire. That's like expecting a .30-'06 round to fire without a primer in place. If the priming compound has stuck to the nipple, a probe with a vent pick will remove it.
Again, the adage of nothing being foolproof in the hands of a fool applies.

I also hunt occasionally with a '63 Sharps percussion rifle. I consulted with the local CO and asked if he was familiar with the law re: flint and percussion rifles. Then I asked his attitude towards me having a paper round in the chamber with the nipple unprimed.
After a moment, he said that it would fall into the same category as far as common sense would indicate.

If you're unfamiliar with such ammo, you may or may not be able to drop the cartridge out of the chamber as there is no extractor and nothing to grab if there was.
If you have used the 'cigar cutter' on the gas check to shear off the end of the paper cartridge,you now have loose powder (a safety hazard) and maybe a ball stuck in the barrel; a potentially dangerous situation if not removed immediately, which requires a cleaning rod.

Loading the cylinder(s) of a cap & ball revolver and transporting them separately to the range would seem to make sense for those who live in cold climates. Transporting a capped cylinder under any conditions is courting an accident.

ML and BP firearms in general require that the user be a pretty bright bulb and relearn what was once common knowledge.

Todd

 

[tiriaq]

If the priming compound has stuck to the nipple, a probe with a vent pick will remove it.
Again, the adage of nothing being foolproof in the hands of a fool applies.

Of the three incidents that I mentionned, one was in the 19th century, two relatively recently. Obviously a pick would have eliminated the residual compound, had anyone thought to check - or even been aware that the situation could exist.

I have a Starr carbine, which is functionally similar to your Sharps. Original ammunition was a composite linen and paper cartridge. Unloading without firing would likely need a rod. I have not used a Sharps, but did not some automatically cut the end off the paper cartridge as the breech closed? Loose powder would be an unloading issue, a rod would likely be needed to get the remains of the cartridge out, and the cartridge would not be reusable.

I suppose whether a capping breechloader is considered to qualify as a ml gun for hunting purposes in a given jurisdiction is something that would require a ruling.

Personally, I am uncomfortable with a charged barrel in a ml gun that is being transported, etc. Have seen originals that were handled this way and left loaded. The advent of special seasons for ml guns has resulted in a lot of ml hunters who aren't really interested in ml guns, and only want the additional hunting opportunities. Most of my ml hunting has been with shotguns, and unloading these without firing is straightforeward.

 

[Sharps '63]

Breechloading Percussion Rifle Ammo

Tiriaq

Yes, the ammo used by your Starr and other Civil War era rifles and carbines was similar to the paper/linen wrapped Sharps cartridges.
Some were loaded to chamber length while others needed the 'cigar cutter' to shear off the base of the cartridge to expose the powder. Those that were chamber length had an easily ignited paper or guaze material base.

I've used both and prefer chamber length as you don't have a problem with loose powder accumulating where you don't want it.

My rifle is .50 calibre so I can make up authentic looking rounds that handle well by rolling a sized/lubed bullet with .54 calibre 60 gr. Pyrodex pellet. This is short of chamber length and I can usually unload an unfired round unless I've forced it in to the rifling leade.
Not a powerful load, but accurate out to 200 yards.

As it is a breech loader, it does not qualify as a ML for that specific season.
It COULD be muzzleloaded on top of a powder-only cartridge, but I wouldn't want to argue it in court.

This was a common practice in long range rifle matches well into the cartridge era. It was a way of reducing powder fouling between shots where bore wiping was disallowed.

Todd.

 

[tiriaq]

My Starr slugs at .565. I was shooting it today without cartridges. A .562 round ball, two lubed felt wads, and about 50gr. of black. This filled the chamber. The ball seats nicely in the forcing cone. Breech sealing is excellent, no apparent gas leakage. The musket cap goes off rather close to the nose, of course. Unfortunately this load groups about 6" high at 25 yards. I have yet to make a mould for a proper conical bullet. The sights are basic - a one piece rather blunt front, and a leaf rear with a basic notch, and then two others with the leaf vertical.