Perplexing issues with a 280 Rem!

[dthunter]

Hi guys! I recently rebarreled my rem700 to 280Rem.
I installed the barrel (the rifle is a switch barrel), and checked the headspacing.
Barrel is a 30" Shilen Match Select. 1:8" twist

The "NO GO" guage doesnt allow me hardly any downward movement on the bolt.
So the headspacing is good and on the tight side.


Here is some of the issues:

After firing a H1000 load, I noticed that the cases (3 of the 5 cases) had a light, just visible ring around the head of the case! Incipient case head seperation! The velocities were just over 2800fps! Wow! I stopped shooting right there and went home. I checked the inside of the cases with a dental pick, and sure enough, you can feel a distinct ridge inside the case.

None of the other loads showed me any pressure issues at all. No ridge inside those cases.

Infact, the cases that show the seperation ring only have slightly flattened primers, and rechamber easily. "None of the NORMAL INDICATORS of elevated pressure.

Is it common that the 280 case gives out to pressure this easily before showing the normal pressure signs like flattened primers and extracror marks?

Did I just hit a bad combo for this barrel?

I have tried 5-6 different loads so far, using H1000, H4350, and H4831.

On the load in question, the charge of H1000, I was 3 grains low of the published maximum charge for a 168 grain Bullet.(57grains) Seated .005" off the lands.

I rechecked my head spacing when I got home, and it was unchanged, and still on the tight side.

Wheeew!

I am shooting prepped, unfired, Winchester Nickel plated brass.

Also one more note: the cases that have the incipient case head seperation ring are .008" longer than all the other once fired brass.


What do you guys think?

 

[guntech]

Your headspace may be fine but the cartridge head clearance can be excessive and give those results... Make your brass fit so you can feel the bolt close, then load it...

Winchester is noted for making undersize brass...

 

[Neilm]

I bought a 300 and tried using200 acc bound with different bowser charges, I kept the different chargest separated. 2 of the 3 rounds showed no sign of excess pressure but one of the 3 would be tougher extracting with signs of pressure. Thinking that this was probably a bad piece of bace.I tried a couple more loadings with the odd case showing pressure sign. Time to try different powder so I switched to retune for the rest of the lot. I never got erratic pressure with Retumbo. Either 3 of the 50cases that I used with.The Retumbo worked great for velocity and accuracy, I sold the remaining powder.Hi000Had smaller case capacities than the other 47 or the H100 was giving erratic pressures When people talk of inconsistent pressures with H100 and think bak to my experience. It may have been the same ball to lot of powder the Op and I used or or it might have to be fired loaded up to certain pressures for consistency. Either way I didn't waste time and stuck with retumbo
Neil

 

[Suputin]

Get some real brass and throw that nickel plated crap in the garbage where it belongs. The headspace in the chamber is only half the equation. The headspace of your ammo is just as important. If you don't have one, get a headspace measuring tool and make sure your dies are set up to match your chamber.

Note: You cannot measure case headspace by measuring to the case mouth. The neck length is not part of the headspace dimension.

 

[buffdog]

.
This is a typical example why a person reloading or developing loads for ammunition should be cautious. Most Manuals recommend starting at a 90% load and working upwards carefully.

One of the big problems is that people want to get the maximum performance out of their rifle, which is sort of a natural inclination. However, some of these loads printed in the reloading manuals can differ from manual to manual. What people do not take into account is that the load in the particular Manual was developed using THE MANUFACTURER'S RIFLE, and THEIR COMPONENTS and THEIR LOADING TECHNIQUES. The chances of the Reloader using exactly the same things are almost non-existent.

To begin with, the Test Rifle used in the Manual may have a different bore dimension, and if a bit larger than a new close tolerance barrel, it will not develop pressures as readily. Primer, powder and bullet and brass Lots can vary. Even though a bullet might weigh the same, the amount of bearing surface contacting the barrel can be more or less - for example a spitzer bullet versus a round nosed one. The round nosed bullet in most cases, has a longer bearing surface that provides more resistance when going down the barrel. Seating depth affects pressure.

There are also some primer/bullet/powder/ powder charge combinations that simply do not work or are not appropriate for the cartridge. An example of this is using some of the Ball Powders in Magnum cartridges, which can cause hangfires in lighter loads due to the difficulty of igniting the powder.

Older loading manuals tend to have larger charges than the more conservative modern ones. This is why you should have at least three loading manuals that you can consult before making up some loads. If it is only for one or two calibres, use the Internet to access the Powder Manufacturers website, or even phone them. Most have a toll free number and their Technicians will be glad to help you.

Accuracy is EVERYTHING. It is no good having something going like a Bat out of Hell if you can not hit anything with it. With most modern cartridges, even a 200 feet per second difference will only make about a two inch drop difference at 300 yards. Most people can not see a two inch difference at 300 yards, and after 50 plus years of Big Game Hunting all over Canada, I have found that over 90 percent of the game I have shot has been well under 200 yards, with most of these being closer to the 100 yard mark or less. Higher velocity does not really knock down game - bullet placement and bullet construction is what counts for Hunting.

 

[dthunter]

Note: You cannot measure case headspace by measuring to the case mouth. The neck length is not part of the headspace dimension.

Thankyou for your attempt to help.

If you READ my post, you will see that I mentioned that the brass that had the incipient case head seperation issues had significant case stretch/flow "to further emphasize the Confirmation of the thinning". More information than maybe needed.

Yes the cases need to be formed with the proper headspace as well. I will simply neck up the cases and resize them back to 280, to create a crush fit to zero head space.

I just wanted to see if anyone else has seen this issue with 280rem brass

 

[dthunter]

.
This is a typical example why a person reloading or developing loads for ammunition should be cautious. Most Manuals recommend starting at a 90% load and working upwards carefully.

One of the big problems is that people want to get the maximum performance out of their rifle, which is sort of a natural inclination. However, some of these loads printed in the reloading manuals can differ from manual to manual. What people do not take into account is that the load in the particular Manual was developed using THE MANUFACTURER'S RIFLE, and THEIR COMPONENTS and THEIR LOADING TECHNIQUES. The chances of the Reloader using exactly the same things are almost non-existent.

To begin with, the Test Rifle used in the Manual may have a different bore dimension, and if a bit larger than a new close tolerance barrel, it will not develop pressures as readily. Primer, powder and bullet and brass Lots can vary. Even though a bullet might weigh the same, the amount of bearing surface contacting the barrel can be more or less - for example a spitzer bullet versus a round nosed one. The round nosed bullet in most cases, has a longer bearing surface that provides more resistance when going down the barrel. Seating depth affects pressure.

There are also some primer/bullet/powder/ powder charge combinations that simply do not work or are not appropriate for the cartridge. An example of this is using some of the Ball Powders in Magnum cartridges, which can cause hangfires in lighter loads due to the difficulty of igniting the powder.

Older loading manuals tend to have larger charges than the more conservative modern ones. This is why you should have at least three loading manuals that you can consult before making up some loads. If it is only for one or two calibres, use the Internet to access the Powder Manufacturers website, or even phone them. Most have a toll free number and their Technicians will be glad to help you.

Accuracy is EVERYTHING. It is no good having something going like a Bat out of Hell if you can not hit anything with it. With most modern cartridges, even a 200 feet per second difference will only make about a two inch drop difference at 300 yards. Most people can not see a two inch difference at 300 yards, and after 50 plus years of Big Game Hunting all over Canada, I have found that over 90 percent of the game I have shot has been well under 200 yards, with most of these being closer to the 100 yard mark or less. Higher velocity does not really knock down game - bullet placement and bullet construction is what counts for Hunting.

You are right, accuracy is everything, but thats notwhat the post is about.
I dont need load development advise, been there done that for a very long time. Thankyou non the less.
What I wanted/needed was, " has anyone else encountered this with 280rem brass"?

I provided all the background information so those who need the info for a detailed response would have all they need.

Thankyou for the replies reguardless.

I think its a case of poor forming quality control. As stated in the above post, I need to create a false shoulder to Zero my headspace.

 

[dthunter]

Yes, I am thinking that this nickle plated brass tends to suffer much more with quality control than standard brass.
It was all I could find at the time.

 

[dthunter]

Your headspace may be fine but the cartridge head clearance can be excessive and give those results... Make your brass fit so you can feel the bolt close, then load it...

Winchester is noted for making undersize brass...

Just what I was thinking.
Poor quality control for sure! I will have to create a false shoulder to create a crush fit and Zero the headspace.

 

[sunray]

"...hardly any downward movement..." What's the Go guage doing? If you only used a No-Go, that barrel isn't installed properly. New barrels require both guages as a minimum.
"...Incipient case head seperation..." Highly unlikely. Plain brass or plated doesn't matter much. Plated brass is just that too. Same thing otherwise.
"...velocities were just over 2800fps..." That can't be right. Hodgdon gives 2700 fps for a 60 grain max load.
"...The headspace of your ammo is..." There's no such thing. Ammo does not have headspace. Headspace is a rifle tolerance thing only.

 

[flying pig]

"...hardly any downward movement..." What's the Go guage doing? If you only used a No-Go, that barrel isn't installed properly. New barrels require both guages as a minimum.
"...Incipient case head seperation..." Highly unlikely. Plain brass or plated doesn't matter much. Plated brass is just that too. Same thing otherwise.
"...velocities were just over 2800fps..." That can't be right. Hodgdon gives 2700 fps for a 60 grain max load.
"...The headspace of your ammo is..." There's no such thing. Ammo does not have headspace. Headspace is a rifle tolerance thing only.

Unless it's a rimmed cartridge. Then a thin rim will create 'excess' headspace. Like Remchester 303 Brit brass vs good mil spec 303 Brit brass.

280 Rem is an offspring caliber of 30-'06, which is the offspring of 30-'03. 280 is a necked down 30-'06. This problem is not a simptom of your caliber. There is something else wrong. I agree you need to try the go gauge too, or the fired primer in the pocket of a new unfired case trick so you can actually measure where you are at.

 

[dthunter]

"...hardly any downward movement..." What's the Go guage doing? If you only used a No-Go, that barrel isn't installed properly. New barrels require both guages as a minimum.
"...Incipient case head seperation..." Highly unlikely. Plain brass or plated doesn't matter much. Plated brass is just that too. Same thing otherwise.
"...velocities were just over 2800fps..." That can't be right. Hodgdon gives 2700 fps for a 60 grain max load.
"...The headspace of your ammo is..." There's no such thing. Ammo does not have headspace. Headspace is a rifle tolerance thing only.

Sunray, as usual you enter a thread like you know everything! You need to tone your attitude down!
I used both the go & no- go guages in sequence to prove tolerance. It was checked and measured flawlessly.

Not to mention the "switch barrel rifle" normally has an index mark to torque your barrel up to. Aligning the barrel index mark and action index point. Using all those reference points pretty much ensures the barrel was installed properly.

The cases if improperly formed can induce excessive tolerance and give the shooter the same effect as headspacing issues. If you had any real interest in helping you would have read the posts prior to yours and picked that up.

You read only portions of a post and salivate at the thought of throwing your uneducated opinions at everyone within this site!

The velocities quoted are correct. That is why it suprised me. Pressures that high at such a modest powder charge.
Again, if you READ THE POSTS, I am shooting a 30" barrel as well. This will give me higher than standard velocities at the normal powder charges.

 

[Suputin]

Thankyou for your attempt to help.

If you READ my post, you will see that I mentioned that the brass that had the incipient case head seperation issues had significant case stretch/flow "to further emphasize the Confirmation of the thinning". More information than maybe needed.

You did not specify how or what dimension you measured and a LOT of people on this board seem to misunderstand headspace and COAL.

Case head separation can be caused by other issues than excess headspace. Depends on how many times the case has been fired, which you also did not originally specify.

Yes the cases need to be formed with the proper headspace as well. I will simply neck up the cases and resize them back to 280, to create a crush fit to zero head space.

Necking up and resizing will not change the headspace of the case. If your die is set wrong you will simply be recreating the problem. The ONLY solution is to properly measure the headspace of a sized round and a fired case. Only then can you see what is happening inside the chamber.

It is important to understand exactly what the headspace dimension is .... and it isn't what most people seem to think.

 

[dthunter]

Suputin:

"You said"You did not specify how or what dimension you measured and a LOT of people on this board seem to misunderstand headspace and COAL"

Good point I see what your intentions were.

This quote: Depends on how many times the case has been fired, which you also did not originally specify.

Sorry Suputin, I did specify specifically. Look again, you should find it.

"Necking up and resizing will not change the headspace of the case. If your die is set wrong you will simply be recreating the problem. The ONLY solution is to properly measure the headspace of a sized round and a fired case. Only then can you see what is happening inside the chamber."

Maye you dont see what I am doing. by increaseing the caliber of the neck, then progressively sizing the cases back down untill the bolt can just close with some crush fit. This creates an ABSOLUTE perfect fit in the chamber and locates the case centered in the chamber.
This will indeed eliminate any potential issues with case fit in relation to headspace. I have used this technique many times with thousands of cases. My explaination of how I was going to do this was a little vague.

Thankyou for your replies Suputin, you are at least trying to help.

 

[Baribal]

Then, if you checked everything else and your cases are stuck in position with zero case headspace, you may have somekind of SEE happening. Try using more bullet to land distance, like, i don't know, 0.015"...

 

[dthunter]

Then, if you checked everything else and your cases are stuck in position with zero case headspace, you may have somekind of SEE happening. Try using more bullet to land distance, like, i don't know, 0.015"...

Thats a scarey thought! Lol!

I have not created the false shoulders yet on the cases. Thats the very next thing on my agenda. Next to Christmas shopping that is. I had to fly out to work this morning. I will be working for two weeks before I can get back to my project. Darn it!

 

[guntech]

Just what I was thinking.
Poor quality control for sure! I will have to create a false shoulder to create a crush fit and Zero the headspace.

It's the terminology... just to clarify some points...

The headspace of the rifle won't change. It is a fixed measurement that requires gunsmithing to change it.

What you are doing is correcting the cartridge case head clearance by making the case fit the chamber.

The term headspace is very often incorrectly used (by individuals and manufacturing companies as well) when describing what should be termed case head clearance...

 

[dthunter]

It's the terminology... just to clarify some points...

The headspace of the rifle won't change. It is a fixed measurement that requires gunsmithing to change it.

What you are doing is correcting the cartridge case head clearance by making the case fit the chamber.

The term headspace is very often incorrectly used (by individuals and manufacturing companies as well) when describing what should be termed case head clearance...

You are correct. Thankyou for clarifying my explaination. My explainations some times lack. But my understanding with headspace does not.

This is one of the problems with these kinds of forums. Everyone has a certain way of explaining things. They may understand correctly what is going on, but explain it in a way that some cant understand.

It can get frustrating. One thing for sure is that there is no way we can explain everything, so that everyone can understand. Thats why its good to help other posters clarify technicality issues. I can appreciate that.

Certain members here surf the threads "salivating" and waiting to jump on any comment they "partially read". Then go on a rant that has nothing to do with the original post. Its sad!

 

[guntech]

I am glad you read it with how I intended it... it was meant to help...

 

[rokoro]

I purchased a couple hundred Winchester brand nickel plated cases for one of my 280's. I noticed that while they all had 280 Rem headstamps there was some differences in the cases. Some were properly formed 280 cases that had the shoulder moved forward approx. .050" to where the shoulder is on a 30-06 case. Some cases were sized to 30 and did not have the shoulder moved forward. I had to size these cases leaving a secondary shoulder and fireform these cases. The third type of case I had was a 280 headstamp case necked to 7mm with the shoulder in proper place for the 30-06. This effectively created a cartridge with .050: headspace when chambered in a 280 rifle. These cases would stretch just as dlhunter has mentioned. I expanded the necks on these to 30 cal then resized back to 7mm leaving a secondary shoulder. Fireform and the problems are all gone. Quality control is a thing of the past. Hope that helps