PGW coyote/timberwolf accuracy
- Thread starter logan1080
- Start date
johnny boy
Regular
- Location
- Northern Alberta
I have both plus the LRT-3. Dont have pic's of the targets but will say they are 1/2 MOA with hand loads when I do my part. I would rank these right up there with any of the custom rigs out there. Just need to remeber the aplication.
Application is usually long range shooting/hunting with these rifles I imagine. Therefore the best possible precision is desired, same as custom rigs that are used for same thing that can produce sub 1/2 moa groups with hand loads. If the pgw .308, .338 and .50 cal all produce 1/2 moa accuracy then all 3 would be an awesome think to have in the safe.
Mine too.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I have been very impressed with these rifles AND they are superbly accurate FOR A WORKING RIFLE.
Are they as accurate as a pure precision rifle? NOPE but that was never their intent.
1/2 min is not going to get you too far in a pure accuracy game BUT if that game includes alot of "bump and grind", I would suggest they are as good as or better then anything in their gendre.
the best lap of any NASCAR isn't going to be in the same league as an F1 car but what would you rather be strapped into if this became a full contact sport?
Jerry
Why can't a PGW or another rifle in the same "class" that is designed for field use also be used as a "purely precision" rifle? These rifles are used in the military and are designed to be able to deliver "one shot, one kill" precision at very, very long distances therefore should be able to deliver outstanding accuracy while sitting absolutely still on a gun bench with no wind at the range shooting developed loads. These guns use very high quality components and made to very tight standards so what is stopping them from achieving top notch precision?
please, don't do this to me..
.I just spent 3K on a scope and keep thinking I need a better rifle than my 700 for it...and I'm not spending $5000 on a gun, that's ridiculous.
So ok, they are accurate and f****g good looking but the customer service has to be terrible, the guaranty ####ty and the backlog at least a couple months. Please
I am so close to order one...and the lightly used one on the EE isn't helping.
Anyway, my 800m range isn't ready yet ...
you guys suck!
.I just spent 3K on a scope and keep thinking I need a better rifle than my 700 for it...and I'm not spending $5000 on a gun, that's ridiculous.
So ok, they are accurate and f****g good looking but the customer service has to be terrible, the guaranty ####ty and the backlog at least a couple months. Please
I am so close to order one...and the lightly used one on the EE isn't helping.
Anyway, my 800m range isn't ready yet ...
you guys suck!
Because "one shot one kill" is totally different than "ten shots, one hole". Snipers, while highly skilled shooters, focus on placing the first shot and not giving away their position in the process. Target shooters focus on getting out of the way of the rifle, and letting it do it's thing. Sniper rifles have to be able to survive the environmental issues that the sniper faces and still deliver a high level of accuracy, while target rifles are treated as precision instruments and are handled carefully (no jumping out of trucks or LAVs or fast roping out of helicopters) so they can deliver the very highest level of accuracy.
Still PGW and other of the same type do not think "hey we will make an accurate rifle, but not too accurate". They are after maximum performance because in some cases it isnt about a trophy, its about saving lives. So take a PGW or AI, blaser, etc etc to the range, what is stopping them from achieving extreme precision?
Because shooting one hole groups from a bench and military accuracy are two completely different things, and as such the tools are completely different.
Benchrest style competitions (think f-class and the like) are won with tiny groups. And I mean tiny. Like this 1000 yard group:
These groups are accomplished with custom guns with extremely tight tolerances. Any deviation away from these tight tolerances will translate into accuracy losses. These rifles are not meant to be dragged on your back through the mountains, in snow and sandstorms and other harsh environments. These competitions are also not performed on 2-way firing ranges, so you don't have to worry about being shot at. These guns will shoot with extreme accuracy, under .25 moa (and in some cases, way under!).
The goal for a sniper rifle is not to shoot bughole groups. It's to kill the bad guy at long ranges. Hopefully with one shot, as you mentioned, but that doesn't always happen. This doesn't require extreme accuracy like what is required to win f-class competitions, but needs to be accurate to place a fatal shot onto a human at 1,000 yards. Most military sniper rifles will shoot about 1 MOA, which is good enough to do the job.These rifles need to be able to stand up to abuse, and a lot of it. This means looser tolerances. Sand, dirt, snow will get into the action. But the gun must be able to still operate.
There are some tactical rifles that can compete in f-class, but generally a good custom f-class gun will shoot more consistently than tactical ones. Currently Tac-Ops is building Mike Miller his next f-class build, but this is the exception to the rule.
With that said, a lot of these high end tactical rifles will shoot better than what 95% of shooters can shoot. So it can be used in what you call a "purely precision" sense, depending on what your definition of that is. But don't expect to set any new bench rest records with it.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
This is all about compromises.
Can we get 100,000km wear tires that hold racing car G's? Nope
Can you drive 200mph and get 40 mpg? Nope
Can you build a rifle that will stand up to the rigors of war where function is paramount and shoot precision grade accuracy? You could but not with conventional design.
I know I will hear the cries of horror soon but there is a solution and we will likely start to see this on more and more rifles in the coming years.
Floating bolt heads.
Yes, the same set up as in a Savage. In fact, given the robust growth in sales and influence, we will start to see this brand show up in more working environments.
And as professionals use and understand the positives of this design, more will be used and more variants will be developed. There are already a couple of true custom actions for BR work that use a floating bolt head so we are not far from this paradigm shift.
so back to the orig question. The reason why working rifles dont shoot as well as precision/BR rifles is simply to do with clearance and the ability to function when dirty.
by design, the solid front locking bolt head HAS to have slop inorder to function under any and all conditions. Just run a Mauser sometime and you will understand BUT the lock up on these workhorses is still very good.
Not precision rifle good ( in orig form) but good enough.
By comparison, play with a BR custom action and you will see vault tight lock up. some actions have such tight tolerances that will not function well if not properly lubed. how long do you think these actions will work in the sandbox?
The floating bolt head rifle can lock up rock solid and the rest have slop since the bolt body has no influence on the firing cycle. just dry fire a Savage and you will see the huge amount of bolt movement when the sear drops. yet, these actions can provide superb accuracy.
For now, the world is still on the solid bolt front locking train. This design has compromises so you will continue to see two levels of performance. I will say that designs like the PGW have elevated the performance of the working rifle to a whole new level.
In the past sub MOA was something to be revered. Now 1/2 min is off the rack and ho hum. that is amazing progress and credit has to be given to those who have designed and built such a great shooting working rifle using 'old tech'.
But as in my last analogy, NASCARS are NASCARS and their design limit what they can do. They will never out perform a F1 car in a pure road race.
But start rubbing fenders and that F1 car looks pretty vulnerable.
Now make a NASCAR weigh 1/2 as much and change the suspension and drivetrain and you have a totally different animal.
Jerry
A number of shooters - like me - want to own and shoot rifles that look like working rifles ( I don't usually use the term 'sniper rifles' but if that term helps then, that's what I like to own ) and to use those working rifles in precision competitions.
I am simply not a good enough shooter to really appreciate the difference, but I know that while my TRG's my (now sold) Coyote and my custom 308 are top of the pile for what they are ( 1/2 min or better ) none are consistent 1/4 min or better. The handmade custom F-class rifles are (a) usually not shooting .308 or .223 unless in F/TR (b) in many cases 1/4 min rifles. Given (a) and (b) they will usually outperform my working rifle in F-Class matches. If I were to take my TRG to a benchrest competition it would be even more disadvantaged when stacked against rifles that consistently shoot in the .1's but those rifles would kinda suck at a match with 20 x 3 second exposures wouldn't they ?
So, as Mystic said, it is much about compromise but frankly there are relatively few shooters who can outshoot the inherent accuracy of a TRG/Coyote/Blaser/AI so if you like that style of rifle you will not be disappointed.
I am simply not a good enough shooter to really appreciate the difference, but I know that while my TRG's my (now sold) Coyote and my custom 308 are top of the pile for what they are ( 1/2 min or better ) none are consistent 1/4 min or better. The handmade custom F-class rifles are (a) usually not shooting .308 or .223 unless in F/TR (b) in many cases 1/4 min rifles. Given (a) and (b) they will usually outperform my working rifle in F-Class matches. If I were to take my TRG to a benchrest competition it would be even more disadvantaged when stacked against rifles that consistently shoot in the .1's but those rifles would kinda suck at a match with 20 x 3 second exposures wouldn't they ?
So, as Mystic said, it is much about compromise but frankly there are relatively few shooters who can outshoot the inherent accuracy of a TRG/Coyote/Blaser/AI so if you like that style of rifle you will not be disappointed.
Accuracy is always "good". Our prime customer base only fires factory loads (and often not the most accurate one available for a variety of reasons). Experienced hand loaders with our rifles will virtually always be able to achieve exceptional results.
Formal testing we do is always with factory ammo and we have fired thousands of rounds doing this. I consider the results of this testing to be statistically valid due to format and volume of rounds fired. Furthermore I know results of the same tests with other available rifles and I know we always do better...
Formal testing we do is always with factory ammo and we have fired thousands of rounds doing this. I consider the results of this testing to be statistically valid due to format and volume of rounds fired. Furthermore I know results of the same tests with other available rifles and I know we always do better...
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I have seen PGW rifles shot way the heck out there and NOTHING that will formally wear camo is going to measureably out shoot it. Equal.... sure. Better.... haven't seen it yet but then we don't get to play with some of the US and euro exotics.
But I wouldn't hold my breath.
PGW makes great kit and for jumping out of helicopters and camping without tents, I would feel very comfy with the choice.
Jerry
But I wouldn't hold my breath.
PGW makes great kit and for jumping out of helicopters and camping without tents, I would feel very comfy with the choice.
Jerry
With my Coyote I find shooting half MOA groups (at 200m) is pretty standard. I generally strive for quarter MOA, and quite often get it. The rifle is certainly capable of very high accuracy; the limiting factor, as always, is the shooter.
Is the Coyote as inherently accurate as a purpose built F/TR rifle? No. One obvious limitation is that the Coyote needs to eat all sorts of ammo, so the chamber tolerances can't be as tight as a custom gun designed to chamber one specific cartridge combo.
Can the Coyote be competitive in F/TR shooting? Yes. The major limitation with long range competition is the shooter's ability. Once you have found a load that your rifle likes, the only thing left is the ability to effectively put the round down range. I have watched very good F/TR shooters with custom rifles competing and most of their hits are within the 1 MOA target center. The misses are not the result of rifle inaccuracy but the result of misreading the wind. So, unless you are shooting on a perfectly calm day, the ultimate accuracy of the rifle doesn't even come into play.
Will a Coyote put a big smile on your face whenever you fondle it? Ya'betcha
Is the Coyote as inherently accurate as a purpose built F/TR rifle? No. One obvious limitation is that the Coyote needs to eat all sorts of ammo, so the chamber tolerances can't be as tight as a custom gun designed to chamber one specific cartridge combo.
Can the Coyote be competitive in F/TR shooting? Yes. The major limitation with long range competition is the shooter's ability. Once you have found a load that your rifle likes, the only thing left is the ability to effectively put the round down range. I have watched very good F/TR shooters with custom rifles competing and most of their hits are within the 1 MOA target center. The misses are not the result of rifle inaccuracy but the result of misreading the wind. So, unless you are shooting on a perfectly calm day, the ultimate accuracy of the rifle doesn't even come into play.
Will a Coyote put a big smile on your face whenever you fondle it? Ya'betcha
I shoot my steel plate swinger at 500m. My Coyote will mark the plate at around 3.5in, +or- a little bit with calm air. The plate measures 6x8 in. This is with hand loads and 175 smk.,5 shot groups. Also have a trued Rem. in a Mac. A3-5 stock that will hold a 5 shot group on the plate,just a little loser then the Coyote, again with handloads. The Rem. has a #9 Krieger barrel. When I look at the barrel on the Coyote it also seems to be a #9 with its unique flutting.The Rem. barrel after 2 back to back 5 Rd. groups is to hot to hold your hand on. Do the same with the Coyote and it's good and warm but not hot. These guns are Pretty and Practical. I've become very attached to mine. Don
One thing to point out is that a lot of the custom target rifles are built on single shot actions, the Twolf and Coyote being discussed here are magazine fed repeaters. Some of our single shot Twolf and Coyotes are winning long range matches attended by the full range of customs. When you have .308 Coyotes nipping at the .25moa mark and a detachable box mag hanging out the bottom, that counts as more than impressive.
