Photos of snipers using Ross Rifles in WWI

[drm3m]

I know nothing about Ross Rifles.
These photos are shown in the book below along with extracts relating to the snipers.

21st Sniper Section November 1916.
Johnson Paudash-far right with the rifle.

The 21st Specialist Section July 1917.
Johnson Paudash-front row second from the right with the rifle.

Commentary;

My Wife's Grandfather was the CO of the 21st Battalion...he did not make it back.

DSO awarded at Buckingham Palace-January 1st 1917.
He died on August 8th 1918- Battle of Amiens.

Lt-Col. Jones was wounded at the Battle of Vimey Ridge and was in command of the 21st Battalion at Passchendaele.

August 8th 1918.

Jones was killed on August 8 1918 and the war ended on November 11th 1918.
He had been there since 1915.
These German MG.08s were deadly if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.....which sadly was his case.

My Wife's Grandfather Lt-Col. Elmer Watson Jones CO of the 21st Battalion with my Wife's mother in England.

I found the book shown above a very interesting read with many colourful anecdotes.

The 21st in Kingston Ontario before leaving for Europe....probably 1915.

The departure for England in 1915.

David

 

[smellie]

Well, friend, you really do owe it to yourself to get your hands on a good Ross, especially a Mark III. They are too long for you to get into a dugout with with the rifle slung but, if you are on a rifle range, they are wonderful. The action is fast and certain, the trigger likely better than any other military rifle produced, and they are accurate. They are also a LOT of fun to shoot.

Thanks for the photos and extracts from your book. The more that things such as this are paraded in public, the better the chance of rehabilitating what was actually a damfine rifle. BTW, I note that ALL the rifles shown with the snipers are "stripped", rifles with and without scopes both The photos are good and clear and I really think that people who have rifles which have been cut should look closely at these photos. It is entirely possible that people have been restoring rifles which were purposely "stripped" during their Service lives.

I have a couple of "stripped" rifles here which are acting up right now. They are jumping up and down and yelling at me that they want to go to the range. I think it's just about time to take them, now that we are suitably inspired by your photos.

Thanks!
.

 

[buffdog]

Ross rifles

Yes, you got to get yourself a Ross. Then, you will see for yourself just what a fine and accurate rifle it was, and the rumors and myths that keep popping up today by he uninformed.

Someone finally got around to pubicly stating one of the biggest problems with the Ross and the Canadians had to face --the ammunition.

Canadian ammunition was held to very close tolerances, and one of the imposed criteria was that the Ross be chambered for the Canadian ammo. When Canada shipped ammunition to England, the British kept it for themselves, particularly for machine gun use, and issued British made ammo to the Canadian troops. At Ypres, where the uproar about the Ross jamming because of mud, the Canadians were using British cartridges, particularly Birmingham Metals Lot 14 and Lot 15. Both of these Lots of Ammunition were not to specifications, being a bit oversized, and they were condemned by the British, but then issued to the Canadians.

Also, politics both in Canada and England had a lot to do with the issue, and the Ross was unjustly maligned by special interest parties.

The photos of the Canadian snipers are in the National Archives. I have had the same ones on my computer for about four years now.
.
.

 

[BadgerDog]

Here's some excellent research background for you on Ross snipers, as well as better pics than found in the archives ...

With thanks to Advisory Panelhttp://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=23 member Clive "servicepub" Lawhttp://www.milsurps.com/member.php?u=645, a new article has been added to the Canada - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=117-canada.

1915 M10 Ross MkIII* Sniper Rifle Serial #223 (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=413-1915-M10-Ross-MkIII*-Sniper-Rifle

This article will be of great interest to both Canadian collectors, as well as those who focus on sniper rifles. Besides Clive's excellent commentary about Ross sniper rifles in WW1, the article is accompanied by an extensive 227 pic photo montage.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Regards,
Doug

 

[lucky72]

thanks for sharing.

 

[Desert_Fox]

Well, friend, you really do owe it to yourself to get your hands on a good Ross, especially a Mark III. They are too long for you to get into a dugout with with the rifle slung but, if you are on a rifle range, they are wonderful. The action is fast and certain, the trigger likely better than any other military rifle produced, and they are accurate. They are also a LOT of fun to shoot.

Thanks for the photos and extracts from your book. The more that things such as this are paraded in public, the better the chance of rehabilitating what was actually a damfine rifle. BTW, I note that ALL the rifles shown with the snipers are "stripped", rifles with and without scopes both The photos are good and clear and I really think that people who have rifles which have been cut should look closely at these photos. It is entirely possible that people have been restoring rifles which were purposely "stripped" during their Service lives.

I have a couple of "stripped" rifles here which are acting up right now. They are jumping up and down and yelling at me that they want to go to the range. I think it's just about time to take them, now that we are suitably inspired by your photos.

Thanks!
.

It's because of you Smellie, and others such as Buffdog, BadgerDog, Stoggie, Cantom etc.. that I now have 3 Sporterized Ross rifles that I have cleaned and repaired, and am hoping to desporterize throughout the next years....

You gentlemen turned me from a Mauseritis patient, into a Rossfluenza patient as well!!! I hope you're happy!

But seriously, if it weren't for CGN and you Ross buffs, I would still be believing the old gunstore/hunter misinformation of the Ross being a horrible, unreliable, and dangerous rifle! Glad I have learned the truth and can enjoy this fine and deadly accurate rifle (as a few skunks and gophers can attest to ).

Cheers!

 

[Talquin]

How much of the gopher is left?

 

[NavyShooter]

My first Ross (from HMS Canada) is waiting for me when I get home from this deployment...looking forward to it.

NS

 

[cantom]

The stories are true...you do need to know what you're doing with a Ross Mk III.
On the first one I owned, I played with the bolt just a bit, pulled it out of the sleeve and gave it a slight turn and...it went together wrong, into the unsafe configuration. It's not hard at all.

But, if the bolt is carefully checked to be in the correct configuration, the rifle is extremely strong and safe.

The bolt sleeves that were pinned in the WWII era are 100% safe. You just can't put them together wrong. As long as the bolt locking lugs are in good shape, not broken off or similar.

When the bolt is together right, the hole is up and there should be the width of your thumb between the sleeve and the bolt head as you're sliding it ahead. (rule of thumb)
Then, as it goes forward, it will rotate 90%, which you can carefully watch happen.
Then, you take a cleaning rod or similar, insert it from the muzzle, and push back on the bolt to ensure it is locked.

If you do this and feel satisfied it is all correct, then you have an extremely safe, strong rifle.

It won't get out of whack by itself once assembled correctly, someone actually has to take the bolt out and fiddle with it.

Sadly, due to the early small bolt stop peening the rear lugs, overly tight tolerances and poor, out of spec British ammo foisted on our troops, the rifle acquired a bad rep which was deserved. I've read stories of one shooter needing 3 other guys to keep one Ross Rifle running while he shot. They often had to kick the bolt open with a muddy boot...a very bad situation with the Hun attacking. All that in addition to the fact that they aren't that easy to load even when everything is working right...I've fiddled around with one at the range enough to know that. The Lee Enfield is much easier to operate.

It was all eventually sorted out but by then it was too late, and it definitely wasn't fair to send our guys into harms way with a rifle that they couldn't trust.

There was also the usual political bs going on, think Jean Chretien cancelling the helicopters or Dief cancelling the Avro Arrow, to score political points, no matter whether right or wrong.

The Ross is a great piece of Canadiana with a tragic twist.

I love my Rosses and most of what I own has the word Ross on it. But, that doesn't mean it would be my first choice as a combat rifle.

 

[BadgerDog]

In case you decide you ever want to start taking the bolt itself apart, you might want to read and save this for future reference...

There's an outstanding article by "PerversPépère", on Ross M-10 Rifle Bolt Disassembly (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=298-Ross-M-10-Rifle-Bolt-Disassembly and the dangers of doing it incorrectly. It may be found under the Technical Articles for Milsurp Collectors and Re-loaders (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/content.php...esearch-for-milsurp-collectors-and-re-loaders forum of the Milsurp Knowledge Libraries.

Regards,
Doug

 

[Nathan231]

My great grandfather used a 1905 marked Ross in WW1.

 

[drm3m]

The debate concerning the Ross rifle continued.

Excerpt from the book shown above which begins to get into the politics regarding the Ross rifle.

David

I am sure I don't know.

Perhaps the ammunition issue might have been missed at that time.
So simple....but perhaps only understood later.
When you are up to your ass in alligators....lots of things get missed ...I suspect?

 

[smellie]

When you are up to your ass in alligators.......

Well put.

It is possible that things weren`t sorted out properly because there actually were TWO problems, each feeding the other, so to speak. The Ross Rifle had no troubles at all when fed with British ammo which was TO SPEC. The chambering problem only arose when the rifles were fed ammo which was SO FAR out of spec that it was troublesome EVEN in the SMLE.

Now we come to ANOTHER problem. The body (receiver) of the SMLE is much smaller than that of the Mark III Ross. When the SMLE was Proofed, the charge actually EXPANDED the chamber of the rifle approximately .002. The REAMERS were made to Enfield spec, both for the Ross and for the SMLE, but the massive Ross action didn`t STRETCH when the Proof round was fired. This accounts for the extreme difficulty in removing an SMLE barrel; the new barrel screws on with finger-power, but it can take anywhere up to 400 ft-pounds of torque to break an old one free.... following which it turns out by finger-power.

But the ammunition problem was known at that time, no doubt at all.

The problem with the RIFLE was the small bolt-stop, which, when operated too exuberantly (or kicked) would pein itself against the left-rear locking-lug, deforming both the lug and the stop. When this problem was sussed out, the rifles were modded and new bolt-stops (at 30 cents apiece, mind you) were instaled. This stopped the peining of the locking-lugs. If a bolt-head were deformed, however, it could jam the rifle; I have replaced bolt-heads on rifles which were jammed up solid, following which they worked very well.

Apart from the ammunition, the RIFLE problems were very minor and would have been sorted out beore the War.... except that the Mark III never had a full-out troop trial. It was TOO NEW, the very first rifles being made only in 1912 and ony a few available for test in 1913. In 1914, the troops trained with the Mark II and then were haded brand-new Mark III rifles which were actually made while they were training!

IF they had had only ONE more year........

But they didn`t.

And the whole thing has turned to a matter of legend.

The ammunition problem is discussed thoroughly in one of the Appendices to the Official History, "The Canadian Expeditionary Force in the Great War", a massive set of books (about 40 volumes) published in the 1920s. There is a full set in the Library at the University of Manitoba, among others. The information as regards the ammunition problem, IIRC, is in the Appendix to Volume 38. THIS APPENDIX has been reprinted as a small book and is available currently for about $15.

Hope this helps.

But you really DO owe it to yourself to own a Ross Rifle. You will NOT regret it.
.

 

[drm3m]

smellie,

My compliments regarding your knowledge of the Ross Rifle and its "rather colourful" story.

Some photos of the 21st Battalion in England showing their Mk III Ross rifles.
It seems that these photos were taken in 1915 before leaving for Europe....and the fight.

David

 

[Ax.338]

It is a interesting coincidence that Pte. Phil McDonald also a WW I sniper had exactly the same number kills as Sniper Paudash. He also notched his MK III Ross every time he got a kill. McDonald was with the Winnipeg Rifles, 8th Battalion, 1st Canadian Division. He was killed by a shell Jan. 3rd 1916

 

[drm3m]

Sorry these are not great images they are taken from the book above.

An interesting comment.

The names of the snipers and other members of 21st Battalion Specialist section.

I have not found any reference in the book to what happened
to Pte Johnson Paudash after he was relieved from his
sniper duty....but he does appear in the 1917 photo above.

Perhaps the military did him a great favour by sending him home?

Some other period photos of the 21st.

"NAN" the Battalion mascot.

THE LADIES.

When I look at this photo of the Nursing Sisters on the SS Matagama
in May 1915 with all those soldiers......I wonder how many love affairs
blossomed there.

It sort of reminds me of the Canadian Film Passchendaele...a love affair between a nursing sister and a soldier?

 

[cyclone]

I love this thread..........