Pics of some of the nice rifles that showed up to play in Petawawa
- Thread starter chalkriver
- Start date
So first off I'm a newbie so take this with a grain of salt.
Hungry asked for some lessons learned.I m sure you old hats already forgot more than I all ever know but I m going to humbly put in my 2c anyways.
Here is this newbie's lessons learned in the hopes it'll save some other newbies some expenssive ammo.
On grip: my Frank-Enfield has a choate AR style pistol grip but I ended up using a very "loose" grip , hardly any thumb at all and only using tip of trigger finger as recommended by Todd Hodnett in the Magpul "The Art of the Precision Rifle" videos.
On bipod : Again as per Todd , I tried to use a uniform forward push into the bipod which was much more stable, consistent and most of all,repeatable as well as helping with recoil.
On recoil: I still have a fist sized bruise between right collarbone n right pectoral. Not as bad as when shooting my no5 Mk 1, but tough to brag about. Best thumping I ever Got. My rifle is light n so am I ,n shooting prone all day just happens to miss shoulder mass. Trying to not anticipate recoil was an issue on second day. I need to either get a limb saver or practice zen and teh art of shoulder brusing by rifle more.
On mat: Brought one but Didn't use one. Maybe a must for snow, but I was fine for this shoot.
On rear bag/bunny: A rear bag or monopod is essential. From Hungry I Learned to sacrifice some of my daugher s fluffly friends and fill my future sock or bunny with dismembered plastic entrails from my daughters demised plush toys. Thanks Hungry as they are Light and won t absorb water. Also I had a wire stock so on opportunity and agony snaps, I started hooking my thumb into the actual wire stock n using the rest of balled fist on top of the rear bunny sock. But Having that thumb hooked into the rear stock allowed me to reposition quickly for quick snaspshot or followup. I was able to catch upon a missed snap a few times. I liked this a lot. I'm going to start trying to this from now on. It also allowed me to cheat a bit on snaps by raising fingers up or left to right, sort of like pool player 's left hand. not 100% stable but really fast on snaps when there is just not enough time.
On cheek weld : Saturday morning agony test and the duck tape n foam party ( sounds kinky ! ) was essential, however I had more problems with this as my cheap scope has very small sweet spot . the lesson is to buy better scopes n test you cheek weld in agony snap in front of TV first to ensure comfort fit and yes lasting power!
On software: get software u can trust like Isnipe or Strelok. As per Hungry, Isnipe is Canadian apparently the author is on CGN.Whoever you are you rock. That's what I m using too.
On Loads. If you re not handloading or shooting match ammo then at least test n Know your loads. Mine were just crap commercial but at least I got a good reliable chrony speed. if you re starting out don t get hung up on getting the highest BC so long as you get consistent ammunition. The ballistic coefficient is after-all a constant for a given load ,so even on factory ammo you can shoot semi-reliably with a low BC if the ammo is consistent .
On Chrony: I m really glad rdelliot assisted me in chronying my Remington factory loads two days before the shoot. I was using commercial 180 gr Remington .303 core lockt soft point. due to my shorter barrel we ended clocking at 2305 fps with a maximum deviation of only 9 fps. That s Pretty surprising consistency . having a verified chrony speed really helped tune n trust Isnipe .
If using commercial,verify chrony n zero out of your rifle,if you can at same altitude , temp n pressure as your next shoot. Most importantly, the actual speed coming out of your barrel will differ versus the manufacturer reference which is based on 24 inches test barrels.
On Optics: know n train with your optics. This IM(very)HO is the most important factor. I guess it s just Common sense that a 10x scope magnifies your errors .... 10 times. I was using my new cheap BSA scope for the first time. worse yet this'd was my first time using any turrets at all. Predicatbly I made many newbie mistakes.
I entered the clinic with a rough 100 yd zero, which I promptly lost not less than twice due to me not having trained with my optics n turrets and adjusting dials either the wrong way, way too much or way too little. My box pattern ended up being a very slanted parrallelogram off the paper.
I lost zero in box test by dialing the wrong way n again in the 300 y opportunity for the same reason. In the future with more practice and familiarity with my optic I aim (haha) to avoid such mistakes.
Luckily thanks to my awesome spotter and some of Hungry s help I was able to correct twice. Of course correctifying(!) on the fly n messing with turrets to find your mistake and trying to fix it during agony snap or opportunity is frickin nerve wracking at best . So the moral is make sure you practice n learn your damn equipment.
On zero : Study and know your zero n holdovers , your software, or both. Using the hodnett method, If you mess up, so long as you have windage ok, you can just re-adjust your software to the new zero on the fly and trust the software. What I ended up with by luck after my 300yd messup fix was very close to a 350 yd zero which it turns out allowed easy mildot holdover and windage at 500 yd n 600 yd using I snipe. What a stroke of blind luck. I liked it so much I'm now going to try keeping a 350 yd zero on this scope from now on. with that zero, at 100yd I need to aim 3.5 mils low. At 200yd I aim2.5 mils low. At 300yd I aim 1 mil low. At 400yd I aim1 mill high , at 500yd I aim 3.5 mils high, and at 600 I aim a hair below the duplex line.
On mounts: get the best mounts you can afford and allow for enough adjustments for your scope. if you have a cheap scope , get a canted mount and use holdovers or the dead man's horse. The cheap S&K scope mount I have sits 2 inches high but it's not parallel to the bore. luckily it cants forward which was a boon otherwise I d have run out of scope adjustments at 450 yds . This scope mount "defect" ended up being a saviour as at least with it now my 600 yd shots were in scope adjustment. I think canted rails are a must if you have a cheaper or smaller scopes .
On spotting scopes - Don t skimp money on scope. I dont know about you all but my eyes aren t that great in a small 1inch tube. but that Kowa scope and all of a sudden I was able to see what Hungry had been saying for two days.
On teamwork: Most of the reason I didn't t make a complete fool of myself are due to my awesome spotter, Rdelliot who was able to keep me focused n calm an walk me through fixing my mistakes. Best lesson is train with a partner you trust n buy em a beer. you need to build trust, shooting with them n buying beer helps. I need to improve my reading n spotting skills so I can return the favour. Never thought learning to spot would make you a better shooter but it seems to me absolutely the case. To me it felt that spotting teaches you the science, whereas shooting applies the mechanics of the skills you learnt.
Conclusion : If you re a newb like me, Sign up for Hungry s clinic. It s totally worth it, you will learn tons , and it will introduce you to the next level and most of all you ll have a good time . No , I am not a Precision marksman after a 2 day class, but now at least I know it s attainable if I train. Spend money on ammo n scope get out there n shoot.
before the course I had hardly shot past 200yd in recent memory, and now, after having taken the course, I can't wait till the next time I can Get out to a 600 yd range n after that who knows...
So to me this is a whole new world.
Thanks again to everyone for such a great time.
Hungry asked for some lessons learned.I m sure you old hats already forgot more than I all ever know but I m going to humbly put in my 2c anyways.
Here is this newbie's lessons learned in the hopes it'll save some other newbies some expenssive ammo.
On grip: my Frank-Enfield has a choate AR style pistol grip but I ended up using a very "loose" grip , hardly any thumb at all and only using tip of trigger finger as recommended by Todd Hodnett in the Magpul "The Art of the Precision Rifle" videos.
On bipod : Again as per Todd , I tried to use a uniform forward push into the bipod which was much more stable, consistent and most of all,repeatable as well as helping with recoil.
On recoil: I still have a fist sized bruise between right collarbone n right pectoral. Not as bad as when shooting my no5 Mk 1, but tough to brag about. Best thumping I ever Got. My rifle is light n so am I ,n shooting prone all day just happens to miss shoulder mass. Trying to not anticipate recoil was an issue on second day. I need to either get a limb saver or practice zen and teh art of shoulder brusing by rifle more.
On mat: Brought one but Didn't use one. Maybe a must for snow, but I was fine for this shoot.
On rear bag/bunny: A rear bag or monopod is essential. From Hungry I Learned to sacrifice some of my daugher s fluffly friends and fill my future sock or bunny with dismembered plastic entrails from my daughters demised plush toys. Thanks Hungry as they are Light and won t absorb water. Also I had a wire stock so on opportunity and agony snaps, I started hooking my thumb into the actual wire stock n using the rest of balled fist on top of the rear bunny sock. But Having that thumb hooked into the rear stock allowed me to reposition quickly for quick snaspshot or followup. I was able to catch upon a missed snap a few times. I liked this a lot. I'm going to start trying to this from now on. It also allowed me to cheat a bit on snaps by raising fingers up or left to right, sort of like pool player 's left hand. not 100% stable but really fast on snaps when there is just not enough time.
On cheek weld : Saturday morning agony test and the duck tape n foam party ( sounds kinky ! ) was essential, however I had more problems with this as my cheap scope has very small sweet spot . the lesson is to buy better scopes n test you cheek weld in agony snap in front of TV first to ensure comfort fit and yes lasting power!
On software: get software u can trust like Isnipe or Strelok. As per Hungry, Isnipe is Canadian apparently the author is on CGN.Whoever you are you rock. That's what I m using too.
On Loads. If you re not handloading or shooting match ammo then at least test n Know your loads. Mine were just crap commercial but at least I got a good reliable chrony speed. if you re starting out don t get hung up on getting the highest BC so long as you get consistent ammunition. The ballistic coefficient is after-all a constant for a given load ,so even on factory ammo you can shoot semi-reliably with a low BC if the ammo is consistent .
On Chrony: I m really glad rdelliot assisted me in chronying my Remington factory loads two days before the shoot. I was using commercial 180 gr Remington .303 core lockt soft point. due to my shorter barrel we ended clocking at 2305 fps with a maximum deviation of only 9 fps. That s Pretty surprising consistency . having a verified chrony speed really helped tune n trust Isnipe .
If using commercial,verify chrony n zero out of your rifle,if you can at same altitude , temp n pressure as your next shoot. Most importantly, the actual speed coming out of your barrel will differ versus the manufacturer reference which is based on 24 inches test barrels.
On Optics: know n train with your optics. This IM(very)HO is the most important factor. I guess it s just Common sense that a 10x scope magnifies your errors .... 10 times. I was using my new cheap BSA scope for the first time. worse yet this'd was my first time using any turrets at all. Predicatbly I made many newbie mistakes.
I entered the clinic with a rough 100 yd zero, which I promptly lost not less than twice due to me not having trained with my optics n turrets and adjusting dials either the wrong way, way too much or way too little. My box pattern ended up being a very slanted parrallelogram off the paper.
I lost zero in box test by dialing the wrong way n again in the 300 y opportunity for the same reason. In the future with more practice and familiarity with my optic I aim (haha) to avoid such mistakes.
Luckily thanks to my awesome spotter and some of Hungry s help I was able to correct twice. Of course correctifying(!) on the fly n messing with turrets to find your mistake and trying to fix it during agony snap or opportunity is frickin nerve wracking at best . So the moral is make sure you practice n learn your damn equipment.
On zero : Study and know your zero n holdovers , your software, or both. Using the hodnett method, If you mess up, so long as you have windage ok, you can just re-adjust your software to the new zero on the fly and trust the software. What I ended up with by luck after my 300yd messup fix was very close to a 350 yd zero which it turns out allowed easy mildot holdover and windage at 500 yd n 600 yd using I snipe. What a stroke of blind luck. I liked it so much I'm now going to try keeping a 350 yd zero on this scope from now on. with that zero, at 100yd I need to aim 3.5 mils low. At 200yd I aim2.5 mils low. At 300yd I aim 1 mil low. At 400yd I aim1 mill high , at 500yd I aim 3.5 mils high, and at 600 I aim a hair below the duplex line.
On mounts: get the best mounts you can afford and allow for enough adjustments for your scope. if you have a cheap scope , get a canted mount and use holdovers or the dead man's horse. The cheap S&K scope mount I have sits 2 inches high but it's not parallel to the bore. luckily it cants forward which was a boon otherwise I d have run out of scope adjustments at 450 yds . This scope mount "defect" ended up being a saviour as at least with it now my 600 yd shots were in scope adjustment. I think canted rails are a must if you have a cheaper or smaller scopes .
On spotting scopes - Don t skimp money on scope. I dont know about you all but my eyes aren t that great in a small 1inch tube. but that Kowa scope and all of a sudden I was able to see what Hungry had been saying for two days.
On teamwork: Most of the reason I didn't t make a complete fool of myself are due to my awesome spotter, Rdelliot who was able to keep me focused n calm an walk me through fixing my mistakes. Best lesson is train with a partner you trust n buy em a beer. you need to build trust, shooting with them n buying beer helps. I need to improve my reading n spotting skills so I can return the favour. Never thought learning to spot would make you a better shooter but it seems to me absolutely the case. To me it felt that spotting teaches you the science, whereas shooting applies the mechanics of the skills you learnt.
Conclusion : If you re a newb like me, Sign up for Hungry s clinic. It s totally worth it, you will learn tons , and it will introduce you to the next level and most of all you ll have a good time . No , I am not a Precision marksman after a 2 day class, but now at least I know it s attainable if I train. Spend money on ammo n scope get out there n shoot.
before the course I had hardly shot past 200yd in recent memory, and now, after having taken the course, I can't wait till the next time I can Get out to a 600 yd range n after that who knows...
So to me this is a whole new world.
Thanks again to everyone for such a great time.
Last edited:
Last week i was there for sure they have instock. this week i need to check it out.
also i check my receipt is $ 69.99 . not $ 65.00 . sorry for my memory.
yes.Target Sports wedsite sucks. i also check the Wolverine have stock.http://www.wolverinesupplies.com/details/9036/NcStar-Tan-Rifle-CaseShooters-Mat.aspx
but $ 30.00 more.
- Location
- Midland, Ontario
I also found myself dialling the magnification down. On the 300 yard I was using 10-12x power, at the 500 I was 12-16x
The only time I was using my full 24x power was zeroing and at the deliberate 600.
I might be picking up a smaller pack also for the next shoot. I love my eberlestock G4 operator, but it's just too huge. I end up cramming it with all sorts of useless crap. I'll be going with a lo-drag.
As far as optics, I've been in love with my vortex viper since day 1. I got the 6-24 first focal plane. The ability to use the same holdovers at any magnification was great. At 500, I was holding 2 minutes for wind at 24 power. But when you dial down for the snap shots to 12 power, it's still the same 2 minutes on the reticle.
Plus the box test really solidified my trust in the optic.
Hopefully I'll see some of you guys at the M14 clinic next month!
The only time I was using my full 24x power was zeroing and at the deliberate 600.
I might be picking up a smaller pack also for the next shoot. I love my eberlestock G4 operator, but it's just too huge. I end up cramming it with all sorts of useless crap. I'll be going with a lo-drag.
As far as optics, I've been in love with my vortex viper since day 1. I got the 6-24 first focal plane. The ability to use the same holdovers at any magnification was great. At 500, I was holding 2 minutes for wind at 24 power. But when you dial down for the snap shots to 12 power, it's still the same 2 minutes on the reticle.
Plus the box test really solidified my trust in the optic.
Hopefully I'll see some of you guys at the M14 clinic next month!
chrisward3
Regular
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
the box test was unreal, and proved that my scope (Vortex Viper PST MRAD) could track. After dialling 1mil for each three round group, the measurements center-center were bang-on (9cm apart for each group at 100yd/91m). It was scary!
TacticalTeacher
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Georgian Bay, ON
Thanks for that learning feedback. You will all be surprised how good (or shztty) your optics are with this simple test. Many of you PR fans out there can replicate this by having an aiming dot (patch, felt marker, bingo dabber) at the bottom left hand corner of your sheet. Then dial up 5MOA or 10 cm. Shoot 3 boolits.
Dial across RIGHT 5 MOA or 10 cm. Shoot 3 boolits.
Dial DOWN 5 MOA or 10 cm. Shoot 3 boolits (all this time, you are using that patch/dot/aiming point)
Dial LEFT across 5 MOA or 10 cm. Shoot 3 boolits and ya should be back on the patch/dot/aiming mark.
Simple enough. Great learning to had by all!
You don't need to attend a PR clinic to do this, but what was learned by the 28 shooters was the visual witness to 27 other simultaneous BOX Tests going on. All of us were able to walk across that expanse of 7 FOUR Foot Frame targets (about 140' frontage) and inspect the other 27 box tests on the go! Surprising results were obtained.
That multiple box test can't be done by yourselves at yer home range. And that's the advantage of shooting with me at the PR clinics!
Cheers,
Barney
I trusted my scope...I did alot of research before I bought it (Bushnell Elite Tactical 3.5-21 G2DMR). On Sniper Hide, and various other forums, it was always talked about as being the best bang for your buck. If it is good enough for team GAP, and George Gardner, it is more than adequate for me. The box test proved that it tracked well. It is not you average Wal Mart Bushnell. I ran the whole course with my scope on 18X
I've just edited my sigline to add "Will spot for beers" . Gotta say that I enjoyed the spotting as much as the shooting. It's very gratifying to see your shooter landing hits.
Lessons learned?
I need to streamline my gear; it'd be nice to be able to get everything on and off the mound in one trip. Some of you guys have great taste in tactical luggage.
I also need a better bipod. My $24 NCStar tripod is pretty sketchy.
I need to learn how to shoot in wind; I did a lot better in last year's nearly windless conditions.
Fireformed neck sized brass makes a big difference. I switched to a different batch of handloads at 300 to conserve the good stuff. Bad move. My groups went to pot.
MRADs bounce.
. Gotta say that I enjoyed the spotting as much as the shooting. It's very gratifying to see your shooter landing hits.Lessons learned?
I need to streamline my gear; it'd be nice to be able to get everything on and off the mound in one trip. Some of you guys have great taste in tactical luggage.
I also need a better bipod. My $24 NCStar tripod is pretty sketchy.
I need to learn how to shoot in wind; I did a lot better in last year's nearly windless conditions.
Fireformed neck sized brass makes a big difference. I switched to a different batch of handloads at 300 to conserve the good stuff. Bad move. My groups went to pot.
MRADs bounce.
Just ordered the muzzle brake I have been looking at for a while now.
Cuts down recoil even more over the factory brake, and does it without blowing snow/ dirt/ dust/ rocks/ small children, all over the shooter.
American Precision Arms - Fat Bastard Muzzle Brake.
Thanks for those who provided input on similar brakes, much appreciated.
Cuts down recoil even more over the factory brake, and does it without blowing snow/ dirt/ dust/ rocks/ small children, all over the shooter.
American Precision Arms - Fat Bastard Muzzle Brake.
Thanks for those who provided input on similar brakes, much appreciated.
Buzzballer
CGN Regular
- Location
- Southern Ontario
That's an awesome looking break Kevin!
I agree, I like the chamfer at the front of the break. You going to do the same on yours
TacticalTeacher
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Georgian Bay, ON
Okay Petawawaw Clinic PR addicts....
Just a reminder that the ORA is holding a PR match on Sat 05 Oct at Base Borden. You want in? I'll post the match director's email here so that you can arrange to shoot this match.
AND here it is: oraprecision@hotmail.ca (Rudy P is the match director for this event).
It's worth the drive down here for the start of you Precision Rifle competition fun. I'm gonna be a few ranges down the road shooting at a CQB match that same day!
Ensure you bring someone you know/trust well enough to shoot with and spot with just like we did at the clinic.
Will get back to ya!
Cheers,
Barney
Just a reminder that the ORA is holding a PR match on Sat 05 Oct at Base Borden. You want in? I'll post the match director's email here so that you can arrange to shoot this match.
AND here it is: oraprecision@hotmail.ca (Rudy P is the match director for this event).
It's worth the drive down here for the start of you Precision Rifle competition fun. I'm gonna be a few ranges down the road shooting at a CQB match that same day!
Ensure you bring someone you know/trust well enough to shoot with and spot with just like we did at the clinic.
Will get back to ya!
Cheers,
Barney
