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- Thread starter KC
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gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
If it says W. Richards it is a Belgian knock off. Proof marks on the bottom of the barrels will tell for sure. If there is a E over LG within an oval, it is a Belgian knock off. In that case I would not spend any money on it as it has little collector value. If the bores have pitting I would be very leary about shooting it being twist barrels. It needs to be checked out first to see how deep the pitts are and what the barrel wall thickness is. It is most likely a wall hanger.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
I believe if it is a true Westley Richards shotgun, the complete name will be spelled out and also the address will be on the rib if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps Catnthehat will chime in as he owns one.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
As Triag mentioned, it could very well be a Williams Richard. They are Birmingham proof marks. I believe the 14 is nominal tube size for 14 bore tubes.
It is a W. Richards gun, with, at least, barrels, & possibly the whole gun, having been made by Webley & Scott.
W. Richards is not the same as WM. Richards, based on the 3 BLNE guns I have owned by that maker, as well as 2 BLE guns by WM. Richards (& that were all marked with WM., as opposed to the single letter W), as well as a couple or 3 by Westley Richards. There were 12 different "makers" with the initials W. Richards, not including the famous Westley branch of the family, back in the day & some pre-dated Westley's manufactory.
By any chance, is there an address engraved on the top rib, that you could provide us?
Nice tight bores, which, depending on their thickness, could be polished out. The problem with that, of course, is that you will quite probably take it out of proof. I also see some SEVERE external barrel pitting in the 1st photograph. HOWEVER, the 14 & then M B indicate it is 14 bore at both the breech & muzzle, ie no choke (or it would have CHOKE stamped into the metal, which, perhaps I am unable to see in the photos). You may find that it is, indeed, a 14 bore gun, as opposed to a 12 bore, tightly bored gun. The proof marks help you date the gun to between 1875 & 1887. It was black powder proofed.
It is interesting that, despite the wedge pin fore-end attachment, which was a leftover from the muzzle-loading era, it has rebounding hammers. This again points to the 17 year period when both the Anson & Deeley (both assigned to Westley Richards) patents for fore-end attachment were still in effect (why pay royalties if you don't have to by using expired patents in your less expensive designs when you can), but during the same period when the rebounding hammer patent was still in effect.
Have a look at Scott's 1872 catalogue. It shows this model as "The Double Grip Breech Loader Back Action Locks," noting that it is known as "The Trade action," and describing it as "a sound and firm gun, and one much used in this country." The catalog also notes that it can be ordered with rebounding locks.
Hope this helps.
W. Richards is not the same as WM. Richards, based on the 3 BLNE guns I have owned by that maker, as well as 2 BLE guns by WM. Richards (& that were all marked with WM., as opposed to the single letter W), as well as a couple or 3 by Westley Richards. There were 12 different "makers" with the initials W. Richards, not including the famous Westley branch of the family, back in the day & some pre-dated Westley's manufactory.
By any chance, is there an address engraved on the top rib, that you could provide us?
Nice tight bores, which, depending on their thickness, could be polished out. The problem with that, of course, is that you will quite probably take it out of proof. I also see some SEVERE external barrel pitting in the 1st photograph. HOWEVER, the 14 & then M B indicate it is 14 bore at both the breech & muzzle, ie no choke (or it would have CHOKE stamped into the metal, which, perhaps I am unable to see in the photos). You may find that it is, indeed, a 14 bore gun, as opposed to a 12 bore, tightly bored gun. The proof marks help you date the gun to between 1875 & 1887. It was black powder proofed.
It is interesting that, despite the wedge pin fore-end attachment, which was a leftover from the muzzle-loading era, it has rebounding hammers. This again points to the 17 year period when both the Anson & Deeley (both assigned to Westley Richards) patents for fore-end attachment were still in effect (why pay royalties if you don't have to by using expired patents in your less expensive designs when you can), but during the same period when the rebounding hammer patent was still in effect.
Have a look at Scott's 1872 catalogue. It shows this model as "The Double Grip Breech Loader Back Action Locks," noting that it is known as "The Trade action," and describing it as "a sound and firm gun, and one much used in this country." The catalog also notes that it can be ordered with rebounding locks.
Hope this helps.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
Around $150.00 as a wall hanger.
