PMC Ammo and CZ Shadow

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Mark S.

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Hi Guys...haven't posted in a while, lost my job back in May and recently got a new one - so I can get back shooting now!

Anyways, after about 2500 rounds of BDX 124g 9mm, both FMJ and TMJ, I am still getting the odd FTE. I'd say once every 2-3 mags. It's often enough to be annoying, when everyone I see around me is shooting off hundreds of rounds with no FTE with whatever they are using. When I used AE factory regular lead ammo (no jacket), I had 50+ shots without a single FTE, so I think it's ammo and not me or the gun. I just don't like non-jacketed ammo.

I just noticed this "PMC" ammo, which looks to be equally as cheap for FMJ. I've got a few questions please:

1) Will it work OK in a CZ shadow? (I know some ammo doesn't, for example Winclean, due to the OAL).

2) Is 115g OK to use? Or will it cause me problems not going with 124g? Only gun modification is a #13 mainspring.

3) Is it factory or remanufactured? As far as I can tell it's factory ammo for less money than BDX, which is why I am attracted to it.

I'm just a noob target practicing, not competing or anything. Just out having fun.

Thanks in advance! Looking forward to getting back out there.

Mark
 
I've heard of shadows coming with overly tight chambers that could cause these issues. If the guns springs have been changed or modified in any way that can cause this issue as well. If it's a new gun I'd check the chamber first. Keep in mind BDX is loaded weak for action shooting last I checked so it just meets power factor. Factory ammo is normally hotter thus more recoil and less FTE's due to sticky chambers.
 
Shadows can be problematic with extraction(why some are and not others,I dont know)

Things to check;
1.Give the extractor a good clean.Remove it by drifting the pin,top to bottom.Give the extractor a good scrub,check for damage to the extractor.This is a good time to replace the extractor spring with a woolf extra power spring.This spring may need half a coil trimmed to fit.Clean in the recess in the slide where the extractor sits
2.Try a 11lb recoil spring(mainspring is the spring that powers the hammer).A lighter recoil spring allows you to use lighter loads with enough slide velocity to ensure extraction/ejection
3.Try different ammo.BDX should be fine however.Your shadow should still function with light loads if set up properly
4.As another poster mentioned,check for chamber roughness etc,shadows dont generally have tight chambers,they do have limits on how long you can load your rounds,as the leade can be quite short in them but this wont cause extraction problems,more feeding problems
5.Go to CZ forum,there is a ton of info on this subject
6.Shadows work well with 115/124/147 grain ammo,factory or reload when set up properly

Good luck
 
Is it extraction issue or ejection issue?

In addition to previous post - you may need to get ejector re-profiled like this:

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The first thing to try is go shoot some more of that ammo you already have. But instead of watching the target aim then shift your attention to the ejecting brass. Does it arc out a good foot or more to the side or is it being thrown weakly where it barely dribbles out over your hands?

Two things that can affect this are;

A) your grip is wrong so you're not supporting the gun well enough. That's the references to "limp wristing" you've already seen. But contrary to the suggestion it's not just your wrists. If your hands aren't wrapped around the gun correctly then it may be able to recoil too easily and too far. A proper grip with a bit of tension between the two hands will go a long way to supporting the gun better and put more "kick" into the slide to aid in ejecting the brass better.

B) If your recoil spring is a bit too stiff for some reason switching to a spring which is a little softer will allow the slide to cycle back with more speed and put more energy into ejecting the brass. A sure sign that your recoil spring is too stiff is if the slide doesn't lock back consistently at the last round.
 
Thanks for the replies guys, I am going to have to go to the range and try out some of the suggestions here.

To answer some questions though, the gun ejects the casings with authority - if there wasn't a wall beside me they would go a few feet for sure.

I have a #13 mainspring installed so the trigger pull is lighter, but the recoil spring is stock.

I have about 100 rounds of BDX 124g FMJ left, the first thing I'll try is REALLY focus on my grip to make sure I am not limp wristing (I don't think I am), and I'll also try a new magazine just in case.

I'll also run a box or two of PMC through it and see what happens - I'll report back.

Thanks again guys.

Mark
 
If the casings are ejecting with some authourity then your grip and wristing is fine and the recoil spring is also fine.

It may be that it would benefit from the ejector mod as shown in those pictures. Stock USUALLY works OK as well. At least I've never modified mine and it works fine. But if your ejector is a bit off then making it even half way to what is shown might be the answer.
 
BCRider said:
If the casings are ejecting with some authourity then your grip and wristing is fine and the recoil spring is also fine.

It may be that it would benefit from the ejector mod as shown in those pictures. Stock USUALLY works OK as well. At least I've never modified mine and it works fine. But if your ejector is a bit off then making it even half way to what is shown might be the answer.
Click to expand...

Good to know it's probably not me! The casings eject so hard they bounce off the wall beside me, then sometimes off my muffs, then back to the wall haha. They would for sure go several feet out if I were outdoors.

Is it possible that I do more bad than good by modifying the ejector as shown in CeeZer's pictures? I'd be extremely nervous to start filing down parts of my gun, at least before I tried some different ammo first.

Thanks,

Mark
 
I've seen CeeZer's guns shooting on a few occasions and they perform well. If those pictures are from work he did to his guns then you don't have anything to worry about.

Looking at my own gun the ejector tip is dead flat and square across. Check yours to see if there a burr or slight bend to it that effectively makes the tip contact the casings in a different than correct point or if the pressure is put onto the casing poorly due to a burr or slightly deformed angle. Even just polishing the face of the ejector may do the trick if there's a burr that is catching the casing for some reason.

If that doesn't do the trick then maybe stone or use a super fine jeweler's file to cut the sort of angles shown by CeeZer but perhaps at less extreme angle. Even a bit may be all you need to get rid of this stove piping issue.

While you're at it check that the cases fit smoothly into the face of the slide. They should fit and stay retained in the recess and be held in by the extrator. But with a light flick they should spring out. Check around the rim of the case head recess to be sure there isn't a burr of some sort which might catch the rim.
 
Thanks.

Are these photos good enough for you guys to see if I need to modify my extractor? If not I can try get better ones. I don't own the tools necessary to remove it:

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i-FHpdHHM-X3.jpg


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Change ammunition before you make any modification to your excellent pistol.

I have a lot of 9mm pistols including a CZ 75 B Omega and they all feed PMC without a hiccup. BDX will give FTF and FTE with in tight / match chambers. SIG / Bar-Sto combo does not like BDX, but will eat Federal / AE and PMC and Ruag and Speer and Winchester all day.

My Walther P88 with a match chamber stopped on a bad Federal / AE round today for the first time, FTE. Solid in the chamber. If it's not stovepiping and just sits there, it's a case issue. Jammed solid. The extractor caught it on racking the pistol and ejected the round. That level of stoppage means no matter what shape your extractor is, if the slide doesn't move, you have a solid FTE. I won't shoot BDX in that one, there's no point. A match chamber means tight tolerances, and for me, that means BDX failures.

BDX causes no problems with Glock factory barrels, SIG factory barrels, etc.

So yes, it's probably the ammo. PMC will give you no trouble, it shoots nice tight little groups on this side of the country, anyway, and for really, really cheap.

Your CZ has spoken. Hear it, feed it something else. They are marvelous shooters if you feed them right. I'm in absolute awe of my CZ, which shoots as well at 25 meters as my P88 that cost nearly 3 times as much.
 
Thanks gunzik, that is very encouraging. I'm going to try get my hands on some PMC and see if I get any FTE's.

Does the 115g PMC shoot just as well as the 124g? I'm using it strictly for causal target practice, and the 115g is quite a bit cheaper.

Thanks,

Mark
 
115gr ammo usually has a little snappier recoil/report than ammo with 124gr or 147gr bullets.
It's perfectly fine to practice or compete with 115gr bullets in your ammo.
One note thou, lighter bullets will most likely hit lower than heavier ones up to 30-40m distances and then a little higher till prolly 50-60m and then lower again :D.

You have tons of gunk between extractor and slide - most likely factory grease.
I'm gonna take pix for another forum member on extractor and spring replacement process and what I smooth out on mine. I'll post them here in a few days.
 
My son ran a new shadow, (he was 12 at the time) with factory recoil spring with BDX 124gr ammo and it ran awesome. He did not have the strongest grip. Is this pistol new? If it ran great for a few 1000, than started FTE, I might suggest a stronger extractor spring. Your ejector appears very shiny, did you do anything to it? BDX is loaded slightly lighter in 124gr than factory AE.etc...but not AT power factory. (most loads I have tested and have seen at level 3 IPSC matches are running between 134-138pf). I would suggest a lighter recoil spring as well.
 
Mark S. said:
Thanks.

Are these photos good enough for you guys to see if I need to modify my extractor? If not I can try get better ones. I don't own the tools necessary to remove it:

i-S7kbmgR-X3.jpg


i-FHpdHHM-X3.jpg


i-jtgQjMm-X2.jpg


i-TbSW9hg-X2.jpg
Click to expand...


Mark..buy a punch kit..small hammer and remove it....clean it. You have never cleaned it as you stated you do not have the proper tools to clean it. If it were an HK, or Glock, i would not clean it as often...but with CZ, tanfoglio, etc...I would clean it at least every 1000rds.
 
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Thanks Maurice.

The gun has approximately 2,500 rounds through it, the vast majority of which has been BDX.

I have not done anything to my extractor, the shiny part you see is just the camera flash, it doesn't actually look like that. The only modification is a #13 mainspring for a lighter trigger pull.

What would a stronger extractor spring do for me? Also, I'm hesitant to change the recoil spring because my gun ejects the rounds nice and hard as it is.

I will pick up some of those tools and give my extractor a good, proper, clean next time I am at the range. You guys are right that the extractor hasn't been cleaned since new, because I was never able to remove it, so there is probably packing grease in there.

I think where my head is at right now, I need to remove & clean the extractor, and try some different ammo (PMC) before I start making modifications.

Thanks,

Mark
 
You need regular punches - NOT ROLL PIN punches for extractor removal/reinstallation.
1.5mm and 3mm ones will do nicely.
 
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