POI differences with Milsurp Sights and Handloads/Commercial Ammo

mmattockx

mmattockx

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I don't know if this belongs here or Reloading, but I'll start here and see how it goes...

As many of us are aware, we often get pretty significantly different POI with handloads or modern commercial ammo in our milsurp rifles using sights originally regulated for military ammo. Some of this is explained by the use of different bullet weights/types and often different muzzle velocities, which makes sense to me.

But I have been working on some loads that essentially duplicate the original military loads in terms of bullet weight/type and velocity and I have shot some commercial ammo that also will be no hotter than original (probably less, in reality) and all of it shot high. Some of it very high. The rifles in question are a Swede M38 Mauser in 6.5x55 and a Yugo M48 Mauser in 8x57.

The Swede shot ~2.5" high at 50yds using Federal blue box 140gr that I know is no hotter than the original ammo. The rear sight was set at 100m and it is marked with the 'T' indicating it is regulated for the 140gr spitzer ammo.

The M48 shot ~8" high at 50yds using handloads with 175gr PRVI BTSP bullets at 2600fps. This load is very comparable to some surplus 8x57 I have but shoots somewhat higher. The rear sight is set to the minimum 200m setting.

So, what gives? How can I develop loads that work with the original sights when loads that are very comparable to original are so far off? Or is this the problem where the military planned on aiming at belt height or so to shoot people at closer ranges, transitioning to aiming at center of mass farther away?


Thanks,
Mark
 
Rifles with replaceable front sights could be zeroed by installing the front sight necessary to zero the rifle at a given range. This was done with Lee Enfields. I assume the same could be done with your M48. Set the rear sight at 200 and install a front sight that would result in the group being zeroed at 200.
 
tiriaq said:
Rifles with replaceable front sights could be zeroed by installing the front sight necessary to zero the rifle at a given range. This was done with Lee Enfields. I assume the same could be done with your M48. Set the rear sight at 200 and install a front sight that would result in the group being zeroed at 200.
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I didn't mention that, but changing the front sight is an option if taller sights are available.


Mark
 
I am going through it now with a Jungle Carbine. I got it close but if I could just find a 0.060" No3 front I think it would be bang on. Problem is finding more obscure surplus parts. The options aren't what they used to be.
 
B said:
I am going through it now with a Jungle Carbine. I got it close but if I could just find a 0.060" No3 front I think it would be bang on. Problem is finding more obscure surplus parts. The options aren't what they used to be.
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Part of the problem is anyone with LE’s is using those front sites, myself included. My 55’s and 60’s are on rifles. I have lots of extras in lower numbers.
 
An easy, cheap and non-permanant solution.
You can add a drop of "JB weld" epoxy on top of the front sight and file it on the range until you have the correct impact location.
It's plenty strong but, can be removed easily.
Done it on many rifles.
Or you can buy differents front sights height on gun parts Corp.
 
B said:
I am going through it now with a Jungle Carbine. I got it close but if I could just find a 0.060" No3 front I think it would be bang on. Problem is finding more obscure surplus parts. The options aren't what they used to be.
Click to expand...
Check eBay. There are lots of LE sights there. I bought a near complete set out of the UK for not too much money.
 
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A lot of older service rifles sights are regulated to shoot anywhere from a 300 zero (and sometimes further), hence the high impacts.
The philosophy seemed to be to aim at someones' belt buckle, giving one a maximum point blank range of up to 5-600 yards. The impact being within 10" high or low of an aiming point. At least thats how it was explained to me.

But then, why did they put an adjustable ladder scale on many rifles to compensate for range? That seemed to contradict the explanation above!
 
wesson357 said:
Or you can buy differents front sights height on gun parts Corp.
Click to expand...
Numrich does have a fair selection of front sights for the Swede, but not the M48.

I went and looked at the M38 and the front sight base and sight are both marked -0.5. The front sight is 6.5mm high as best I can measure. Based on this I assume I will want a 7.0mm sight to bring the POI down a bit and allow fine tuning with my final load. Is that correct? My confusion comes because they have sights of varying heights from 5.0mm to 7.0mm all marked with the same correction factor.

zupermann said:
A lot of older service rifles sights are regulated to shoot anywhere from a 300 zero (and sometimes further), hence the high impacts.
The philosophy seemed to be to aim at someones' belt buckle, giving one a maximum point blank range of up to 5-600 yards. The impact being within 10" high or low of an aiming point. At least thats how it was explained to me.

But then, why did they put an adjustable ladder scale on many rifles to compensate for range? That seemed to contradict the explanation above!
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This is part of the problem. The Swede sight is marked down to 100m (maybe 150m, depending on how you read it) and the M48 minimum is 200m. If it is supposed to be zeroed at 200m then I expect the POI to be right on top of the front sight, but the 'shooting at man sized targets' thing may screw that up.

The Swiss K31 has some of this as well, with the 100m and 200m settings being dead on top of the blade, then 300m shoots something like 1ft high because they want the shooter to start aiming differently at the longer ranges. This according to bloke on the range, anyway.


Mark
 
Sight picture - point of aim on the target - is another issue. With a No. 4, the target, the aiming point, was a semi-circle. So the aim was essentially a center hold.
Keep in mind that the elevation calibrations on the rear sight were calculated based on a theoretical trajectory. You know that they are not going to be exact, day to day, season to season.
Point blank range - the distance at which a bullet will strike a target of specified size is going to vary according to target size and bullet trajectory.
Consider a big game hunting rifle. Given a zero at 100, will the bullet hit somewhere in a 12" circle from the muzzle to how many yards without changing point of aim or holding over? A couple of hundred?
 
Personally, I don't have any of my iron-sighted rifles set up to shoot to POA at standard ranges. The 6-oclock hold works best with iron sights, under diverse conditions, and I set mine up accordingly. For example, at 300m, the Finn silhouette target I use requires a POI at least 15 to 18 inches above POA. The 8 inch bull on my 100m target obviously requires POI above POA to allow scoring of points. A "center hold" is generally not optimal for target shooting- try a Mosin Nagant with Konovalov rear sight at 500m. If you use targets intended for iron sights you may find your current setup to be OK. It's actually amazing how proper targets that are appropriate for the sights can improve scores and groups.

milsurpo
 
Sights can be optimized for specific targets at specific ranges for target shooting.
I had one of my Boer Mausers out earlier in the fall (7x57). With the leaf elevated, and the slide in the lowest position, the POI is over a foot higher than the POA at 100m. I could certainly use a target with scoring rings and aiming point appropriately separated.
But for hunting, that would be most awkward.
I would want the POI to be on the tip of the front sight at hunting ranges. Center of mass hold There is no way that it would be acceptable to have to hold a foot low on a deer at 100. For hunting purposes, the old Boer would need a higher front sight - something very do-able with a Mauser.
Something to consider - the Mosin Nagant, SKS, AK, Dragunov and other Russian/Soviet small arms, along with ARs, M-16s have front sights that are adjustable with a simple tool, screwing up and down for refining elevation zeros. Makes perfect sense.
 
Read Tiriaq's posts.

He's telling you something but in a roundabout way.

The people who built rifles back in the days before scope sights were the norm, often the companies would build their own sights to the dimensions which were suitable to be close to poi at 100yds, with most commonly used loads by commercial loaders of the time.

Back then, those loads were often all over the paper or were developed by companies which produced both the rifles and ammunition or had the ammo built to suit their rifles, then sold them both together and again later for follow up orders.

I had the privilege to read a diary from a fellow, with loading notes that were added around 1905. He was living in Alberta at the time, on a farm just north of Edmonton in a place called ###smith. He's buried in a church cemetery there.

That's how I got a chance to read his diary.

One thing I like to do is visit "old" graveyards in small communities. The history on those grave markings is very interesting, especially the comments and ages.

I was looking at one grave with quite a long comment about the fellow's past and how he died. Turns out he was the Great Grandfather of the caretaker, and he had the diary at his home close by. We talked for a bit and found out we both liked shooting/hunting/fishing, etc. and he asked me if I was interested in looking at the diary as it contained a lot of information on factory cartridges and handloading for the 303 British cartridge in different rifles, as well as a few other cartridge/rifle combinations, all for "regulated" rifles, on the high end for the period types.

I was expecting a rather large tome, or maybe several, but there were only two diaries. Both were appx 8'x11' and appx 1" thick.

They were paperbacked but had leather glued to their covers.

He wrote about how difficult it was to get "pre loaded" ammunition for his rifles and pistols, and about how he had to "learn to shoot every different lot"

It was quite an issue for him and it obviously worried him a lot as one of the diaries was basically all about lot numbers of ammunition and "hold of aim, compared to point of impact, out to 300yds" with open sights. Depending on the rifle being used, some had folding leafs on the barrel mounted rib, and some had elevation adjustment "step bars," while a few had micrometer adjustable diopter style sights some of us are still familiar with today.

His writings gave specific instructions for each lot of ammunition for each rifle.

Something which is unusual for the time, was that he reloaded his own ammunition, before WWI, with "smokeless powders" available from the UK, France, Belgium and Germany. Bullets/primers appeared to be available from Canadian suppliers out of Montreal and Toronto.

He made several notations on lot numbers of bullets/primers/powders/cartridge cases, from different manufacturers and the loads which would shoot to appx point of aim from "his" rifles, but seldom worked well in other rifles.

He was quite happy with offhand 4 inch groups at 100yds and that's what most of his comments were about. He did mention using a "shooting/walking stick" a few times but the group sizes were similar.

I'm thinking he was a pretty decent shot. It's been my experience that maybe 1 out of 50 shooters can hold into four inches, using the offhand shooting position. Some even have issues doing it off the bench.

He referred to his loads as "regulated" for specific rifles and I can fully relate to that comment.

His notes mentioned waiting for a year to get his materials out of Europe and sometimes that long to get them out of Montreal/Toronto.

He noted that he would purchase large quantities, large enough for at least 1000 loads with every cartridge he ordered for.

Cartridge cases would start separating and necks splitting by the third load and often after the first load, depending on the quality of the case.

He must have been a bit of a "one off" back in those days. Handloading back then was considered to be "alchemy" or the "devils brewings"

I would have really liked to have known that man. He definitely took his shooting and firearms seriously and went to great lengths to wring the best out of them.

I asked his great grandson what happened to the firearms. He told me they had been spread out through the family long before he became interested in hunting and shooting. The diaries were the only thing he had left, and only because no one else in the family wanted them.

Go figure.

Rifle sights mounted on rifles back in the day and today are "regulated" to shoot to point of aim, with a certain load combination at a specified distance, with what the manufacturers of the ammunition and firearms considers to be "acceptable"

"Kentucky Windage" was a common phrase when I was a kid, repeated from TV shows depicting cowboys, adventurers, etc. "holding off" point of aim so they could hit the "bullseye" at incredible ranges, often from horseback, etc.

OP, you may not want to go through all of the trouble of "learning how to hold off" or the principles of "Kentucky Windage" but that's how it was intended to be done.

Depending on the brand and quality of today's commercial ammunition, you would have to change out any sights you install, so they will shoot well with every different lot of ammunition.
 
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bearhunter said:
OP, you may not want to go through all of the trouble of "learning how to hold off" or the principles of "Kentucky Windage" but that's how it was intended to be done.

Depending on the brand and quality of today's commercial ammunition, you would have to change out any sights you install, so they will shoot well with every different lot of ammunition.
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For target shooting learning the hold off is not a major problem and can even be an advantage using a 6 o'clock hold for round targets. For field shooting and hunting it is a large nuisance at best. I will develop a load for the M38 that it likes and then regulate the sights to that load and use it exclusively. I didn't know Numrich had different height sights available for the Swedes, so that solves that problem.

The Yugo M48 may be another issue. I haven't found alternate height sights for it and I may just be out of luck there. I intend to mount a scout scope on it for hunting next year, so may just give up on sorting the iron sights to my liking, though I do really enjoy shooting it with the irons for fun and practice. Doping the hold off might be the easiest way to go with that.

I was hoping there was something I was missing in all this, but it appears not. Thanks to all for the replies and advice.


Mark
 
mmattockx said:
For target shooting learning the hold off is not a major problem and can even be an advantage using a 6 o'clock hold for round targets. For field shooting and hunting it is a large nuisance at best. I will develop a load for the M38 that it likes and then regulate the sights to that load and use it exclusively. I didn't know Numrich had different height sights available for the Swedes, so that solves that problem.

The Yugo M48 may be another issue. I haven't found alternate height sights for it and I may just be out of luck there. I intend to mount a scout scope on it for hunting next year, so may just give up on sorting the iron sights to my liking, though I do really enjoy shooting it with the irons for fun and practice. Doping the hold off might be the easiest way to go with that.

I was hoping there was something I was missing in all this, but it appears not. Thanks to all for the replies and advice.


Mark
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If your thinking of putting a scout scope on check out Bad Ace. I have four of their mounts and they work excellent. Only issue I had was needing a set of double cantilever rings to move the scope back far enough to have proper eye relief. Minor issue can happen with many setups.
 
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