Polish Radom Vis wz 35 Navy
- Thread starter mark44
- Start date
Photos please. Have to check numbers but I believe those very rare.
***update***
I checked William York's book on the VIS and he states that noted Luger expert Jan Still reports only 25 marked Kriegsmarine examples are known to exist.
He cautions to beware of fakes.
***update***
I checked William York's book on the VIS and he states that noted Luger expert Jan Still reports only 25 marked Kriegsmarine examples are known to exist.
He cautions to beware of fakes.
Last edited:
KM marked Radoms are rare.
The photos below show a KM marked Radom with Kreigsmarine markings on the holster.
The grip strap and magazine floor plate show 'N' Nordsee navy property markings.
This stuff does not belong to me.
I don't know if it is correct.
This pistol and holster are not in Canada.
A fellow in B.C. may have one.
Your photos will be important.
I am definitely not a KM Radom expert, but I can point you to a few collectors that are.
David
The photos below show a KM marked Radom with Kreigsmarine markings on the holster.
The grip strap and magazine floor plate show 'N' Nordsee navy property markings.
This stuff does not belong to me.
I don't know if it is correct.
This pistol and holster are not in Canada.
A fellow in B.C. may have one.
Your photos will be important.
I am definitely not a KM Radom expert, but I can point you to a few collectors that are.
David
Thank you for the imput and photos, I do know the radoms well , have few friends in States who own them" KM" marked too, but in Canada I did not see many.
Mine is unique it has all matching german serial numbers but the slide has also polish eagle and date 1939 with the german markings on top.
Will have to wait for the site to let me download the pics .
Mine is unique it has all matching german serial numbers but the slide has also polish eagle and date 1939 with the german markings on top.
Will have to wait for the site to let me download the pics .
David, it looks like fresh poly engraver to me! I think if original it should be roll marked. I am really not convinced by this one.
I'm interested to see a real KM example.
-Steve
Steve,
Here are extracts from Jan Still's book Axis Pistols.
The KM marked Radom shown above was discussed on Jan Still's Forum and the comments below came from two experts on this subject.
First opinion from an expert on these KM marked Radoms.
The KM eagle and fleet markings are real as they can get. I am troubled with the barrel not being blued but given everything else I would have to accept that it is the real McCoy !!
Guys : Don't get hung up about the panatograph being crude. It is only when it’s perfect you best have your wits about yourself. These markings were applied by sailors who were put on extra duty just like KP duty in our older Army had. That's the reason we have the property marks of the "KM" being placed everywhere one can look on holsters. It was simply another day and another crew put on KP duty !!! They weren't collectors appling these marks or pantographing the eagle and besides , the sure fired fakes that I have seen were laser perfect.
What is strange ?? All KM Radom's will have at least the Letter N on front gripstrap, while small minority will have fleet markings.
Second opinion from an expert.
It is as right as rain(in my opinion)...I had one just like it about 4 years ago....I also knew its History...most people didn’t think it was real!!....I believe the number was N257
David
Here are extracts from Jan Still's book Axis Pistols.
The KM marked Radom shown above was discussed on Jan Still's Forum and the comments below came from two experts on this subject.
First opinion from an expert on these KM marked Radoms.
The KM eagle and fleet markings are real as they can get. I am troubled with the barrel not being blued but given everything else I would have to accept that it is the real McCoy !!
Guys : Don't get hung up about the panatograph being crude. It is only when it’s perfect you best have your wits about yourself. These markings were applied by sailors who were put on extra duty just like KP duty in our older Army had. That's the reason we have the property marks of the "KM" being placed everywhere one can look on holsters. It was simply another day and another crew put on KP duty !!! They weren't collectors appling these marks or pantographing the eagle and besides , the sure fired fakes that I have seen were laser perfect.
What is strange ?? All KM Radom's will have at least the Letter N on front gripstrap, while small minority will have fleet markings.
Second opinion from an expert.
It is as right as rain(in my opinion)...I had one just like it about 4 years ago....I also knew its History...most people didn’t think it was real!!....I believe the number was N257
David
The KM engraving in the picture looks good to me ,I did see many of them all look alike, mine too.The radom KM eagle in the Still's book I do have problem with.
The debate regarding the correct KM markings is endless, and some of them are different.
Here is a KM marked Mauser Model 1934 Variation one manufactured in 1940
with Nordsee navy property markings on the grip strap and magazine floor plate.
(Not matching....but close)
Here is a KM marked Mauser Model 1934-Variation two manufactured in 1938.
Matching Navy Property markings on front grip strap and magazine floor plate O.2325
“O” for Marine Station der Ostee (Baltic Fleet)
Different eagle.
I am not familiar enough with the KM markings on the Radoms.
I believe that John James would know as well as James Fetterley.
David
Here is a KM marked Mauser Model 1934 Variation one manufactured in 1940
with Nordsee navy property markings on the grip strap and magazine floor plate.
(Not matching....but close)
Here is a KM marked Mauser Model 1934-Variation two manufactured in 1938.
Matching Navy Property markings on front grip strap and magazine floor plate O.2325
“O” for Marine Station der Ostee (Baltic Fleet)
Different eagle.
I am not familiar enough with the KM markings on the Radoms.
I believe that John James would know as well as James Fetterley.
David
Here a KM marked Radom which was sold on Pre98. $2900.
N 90% ORIGINAL CONDITON, WE HAVE A VERY RARE EARLY NAZI PRODUCTION A BLOCK RADOM WITH KRIEGSMARINE EAGLE M ACCEPTANCE MARKS. THIS GUN IS ALSO N MARKED ON THE FRONT GRIPSTRAP. THE PISTOL IS ALL MATCHING WITH A BLUED MATCHING BARREL. AND AS PER STILL NO LANYARD LOOP. THIS IS THE REAL THING NOT SOME SLAP-TOGETHER. ONLY 1000 OF THESE WERE ACCEPTED INTO THE NAVY AND THEY ARE SCARCE. MOST OF THE REAL ONES THAT I HAVE SEEN ARE IN THIS SHAPE SO THEY MUST HAVE SEEN ALOT OF USE. IF YOU COLLECT NAVY PISTOLS THIS IS ONE OF THE HARDEST ONES TO GET AND THIS IS A VERY DECENT AND MOST IMPORTANT 100% CORRECT EXAMPLE.
The link to the web site.
http://shop.pre98.com/product.sc?productId=277
N 90% ORIGINAL CONDITON, WE HAVE A VERY RARE EARLY NAZI PRODUCTION A BLOCK RADOM WITH KRIEGSMARINE EAGLE M ACCEPTANCE MARKS. THIS GUN IS ALSO N MARKED ON THE FRONT GRIPSTRAP. THE PISTOL IS ALL MATCHING WITH A BLUED MATCHING BARREL. AND AS PER STILL NO LANYARD LOOP. THIS IS THE REAL THING NOT SOME SLAP-TOGETHER. ONLY 1000 OF THESE WERE ACCEPTED INTO THE NAVY AND THEY ARE SCARCE. MOST OF THE REAL ONES THAT I HAVE SEEN ARE IN THIS SHAPE SO THEY MUST HAVE SEEN ALOT OF USE. IF YOU COLLECT NAVY PISTOLS THIS IS ONE OF THE HARDEST ONES TO GET AND THIS IS A VERY DECENT AND MOST IMPORTANT 100% CORRECT EXAMPLE.
The link to the web site.
http://shop.pre98.com/product.sc?productId=277
Did someone actually buy the KM radom A 1888??? I would have run, and fast!
First of all the KM eagle is in the wrong place , then the eagle is wrong, the engraving is wrong, the pistol has so very perfect N on front strap like on no other KM radom.
Very strange!
First of all the KM eagle is in the wrong place , then the eagle is wrong, the engraving is wrong, the pistol has so very perfect N on front strap like on no other KM radom.
Very strange!
Mark44,
I don't know what to say.
Maybe you should contact Jan Still and tell him the gun shown in Axis Pistols is wrong.
And share your thoughts with Scott Benedict at Pre98 regarding A1888.
I am looking forward to seeing photos of your KM marked Radom.
David
I don't know what to say.
Maybe you should contact Jan Still and tell him the gun shown in Axis Pistols is wrong.
And share your thoughts with Scott Benedict at Pre98 regarding A1888.
I am looking forward to seeing photos of your KM marked Radom.
David
Yes, I will post pics of mine and other KM radom eagles and all look the same, the thing is that main group of them does look as on the first pic in your post . The other group
of KM eagles has not even two eagles looking same to each other, strange ?
Axis Pistols book is from the time when it was no internet .
I did pay $25 for the membership on this site ,and I am waiting for the easy way to download photos as it states in point #2.
$25.00
Membership A: Team Gunnutz
Become a site supporter and enjoy the following add-ons!
1.Equipment Exchange: 5 days of BTT instead of 7 days
2.Upload of picture and pdf attachments. Ability to directly attach pictures to posts without using an external picture hosting service. Storage size: 4MB ( about 50 pictures);
3.Access to CGN Mobile Application (iphone only currently, other platforms in the future);
4.Special discounted pricing on selected CGN apparel items;
5.Access to Team Members Only Area;
6.Access to Social Groups;
7.PM Box size increased to 850;
8.Ability to send PM to boxes that are full, and message tracking;
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of KM eagles has not even two eagles looking same to each other, strange ?
Axis Pistols book is from the time when it was no internet .
I did pay $25 for the membership on this site ,and I am waiting for the easy way to download photos as it states in point #2.
$25.00
Membership A: Team Gunnutz
Become a site supporter and enjoy the following add-ons!
1.Equipment Exchange: 5 days of BTT instead of 7 days
2.Upload of picture and pdf attachments. Ability to directly attach pictures to posts without using an external picture hosting service. Storage size: 4MB ( about 50 pictures);
3.Access to CGN Mobile Application (iphone only currently, other platforms in the future);
4.Special discounted pricing on selected CGN apparel items;
5.Access to Team Members Only Area;
6.Access to Social Groups;
7.PM Box size increased to 850;
8.Ability to send PM to boxes that are full, and message tracking;
9.Larger upload sizes for avatar, profile and signature pictures. Animated avatar allowed.
10.12 months in duration
Terms and Conditions of Team Membership
Update may take up to 2 business days
Imperial luger
Regular
Interesting discussion gentlemen,I have been studying Kriegsmarine property marks for many yrs and have many KM procured/marked firearms but no Radom, I do however own serial # 313 Radom which is not a Polish eagle marked slide. This Radom exhibits all the characteristics of the reported Radoms that are KM marked.
When studying KM property marks and KM marked small arms it is important to always remind oneself of the extra value associated with these markings.
Mr Still an noted author whom expends great energy and time into establishing facts before print in any of his works is not shielded from fakes, the cottage industry in the USA continually churn out repro KM marked pistols and accoutrements, I,m definetly not saying that the reported data on KM marked Radoms in Axis pistols is incorrect but it would be nice to see some more examples coming out of other countries besides the USA.
Our own Canadian vets were stationed at German ports with many a pistol brought home, I have yet to examine one in Canada and look forward to Mark44,s example.
Pantographing in itself is generally all of the same font size and I would disagree with the PK practice associated with marking property marks on both Ostsee and Nordsee marked small arms, the germans were rigid with their attention to detail and it would be my opinion that only the stylus on the pantograph machine from various ports would differ, the germans did follow marking instructions untill phazed out, unlike the electro pencils on reworked russian capture small arms which differ greatly.
Look to Mauser marked 1934's, very similar in font size and execution of the property mark whether N or O marked.
The polish factory once overun is in close proximity to the huge naval port at Gdansk on the Baltic sea, the OKW or German high command and its ministries would of had control over pisol procurement and which german military arm received much needed small arms first--it would not of been a free for all on whom gets what, this should say something itself as Berlin controlled the occupied countries not the immediate victors of the Radom factory.
Common logic would dictate that inspectors and arms personnel would have been rapidly deployed to take advantage of the polish factory's production abilities to aid the unreadiness of the german arms buildup to meet demand.Did the early buildup of U-boat forces neccesitate Radom procurement immediately I do not know, one thing for sure is that ground forces bent on predetermined invasions would have been armed first.
U-boats needed torpedoes not pistols. The data that David pasted from Stills axis pistols seems to indicate the Naval forces were the first in line based on the serial numbers so hard to argue that fact,one could surmize that the early ones were shipped out quick from the factory from parts already manufactured, this would lend credence to Mark44's claim to a polish marked slide with an 1939 date on his example. All others going to ground forces.
Generally the factories marked the inspector acceptances with the docks applying the inventory control property marks of N and O for the Kriegsmarine.One could surmise however that the docks themselves especially Polish ones needed arms immediately for security purposes now under German control, this I have no proof but would partially explain the data provided from Stills works- Axis pistols. and the early serial numbers including the (a) prefix on the pictured example.
Looking forward to your photos Mark, again very interesting discussion.
When studying KM property marks and KM marked small arms it is important to always remind oneself of the extra value associated with these markings.
Mr Still an noted author whom expends great energy and time into establishing facts before print in any of his works is not shielded from fakes, the cottage industry in the USA continually churn out repro KM marked pistols and accoutrements, I,m definetly not saying that the reported data on KM marked Radoms in Axis pistols is incorrect but it would be nice to see some more examples coming out of other countries besides the USA.
Our own Canadian vets were stationed at German ports with many a pistol brought home, I have yet to examine one in Canada and look forward to Mark44,s example.
Pantographing in itself is generally all of the same font size and I would disagree with the PK practice associated with marking property marks on both Ostsee and Nordsee marked small arms, the germans were rigid with their attention to detail and it would be my opinion that only the stylus on the pantograph machine from various ports would differ, the germans did follow marking instructions untill phazed out, unlike the electro pencils on reworked russian capture small arms which differ greatly.
Look to Mauser marked 1934's, very similar in font size and execution of the property mark whether N or O marked.
The polish factory once overun is in close proximity to the huge naval port at Gdansk on the Baltic sea, the OKW or German high command and its ministries would of had control over pisol procurement and which german military arm received much needed small arms first--it would not of been a free for all on whom gets what, this should say something itself as Berlin controlled the occupied countries not the immediate victors of the Radom factory.
Common logic would dictate that inspectors and arms personnel would have been rapidly deployed to take advantage of the polish factory's production abilities to aid the unreadiness of the german arms buildup to meet demand.Did the early buildup of U-boat forces neccesitate Radom procurement immediately I do not know, one thing for sure is that ground forces bent on predetermined invasions would have been armed first.
U-boats needed torpedoes not pistols. The data that David pasted from Stills axis pistols seems to indicate the Naval forces were the first in line based on the serial numbers so hard to argue that fact,one could surmize that the early ones were shipped out quick from the factory from parts already manufactured, this would lend credence to Mark44's claim to a polish marked slide with an 1939 date on his example. All others going to ground forces.
Generally the factories marked the inspector acceptances with the docks applying the inventory control property marks of N and O for the Kriegsmarine.One could surmise however that the docks themselves especially Polish ones needed arms immediately for security purposes now under German control, this I have no proof but would partially explain the data provided from Stills works- Axis pistols. and the early serial numbers including the (a) prefix on the pictured example.
Looking forward to your photos Mark, again very interesting discussion.
Thanks Drm3n and Imperial Luger for filling us in more on these pistols.
I must admit I am still not sure what to look for in an original, but by the sounds of it finding an original example in Canada isn't easy. There is certainly a lot of variation in the examples show in this thread and I can't help but question how many are actually real.
mark44 I would be happy to upload the images for you on my photo hosting site. All you need to do is e-mail them to me, just drop me a PM and I will send you my e-mail address. I'm also looking forward to seeing your KM Radom.
Are the KM serial ranges currently listed online by any reliable sources?
I must admit I am still not sure what to look for in an original, but by the sounds of it finding an original example in Canada isn't easy. There is certainly a lot of variation in the examples show in this thread and I can't help but question how many are actually real.
mark44 I would be happy to upload the images for you on my photo hosting site. All you need to do is e-mail them to me, just drop me a PM and I will send you my e-mail address. I'm also looking forward to seeing your KM Radom.
Are the KM serial ranges currently listed online by any reliable sources?
Steve,
This is what Jan Still says about KM Radoms.
It really does not give S/N numbers.
If Mark's Radom is 1939 dated with the Polish Eagle and is KM marked it will be the first one that I have heard about.
David
1939 Radoms with the Polish Eagle on the slide.
This is what Jan Still says about KM Radoms.
It really does not give S/N numbers.
If Mark's Radom is 1939 dated with the Polish Eagle and is KM marked it will be the first one that I have heard about.
David
1939 Radoms with the Polish Eagle on the slide.
Just one small correction...
Radom is no where near the Baltic Sea. It is 100 km south of Warsaw in central Poland.
Radom is no where near the Baltic Sea. It is 100 km south of Warsaw in central Poland.
