Poor shooting rifle....customize or get rid of it?

It is very hard to expect a factory pipe to shoot 1/4MOA. Does it happen? You bet - buy a bunch of Savages and you might just get one. Certainly not something you can bank on. Sub MOA with good handloads is certainly within the acceptable limits of factory pipes. My Rem700 Classic in 222 shot in the 1/2 MOA range with 52gr MK.

Factory chambers tend to have long throats and after even a 1000rds in a low barrel wear cartridge you can move that throat just far enough to get irratic accuracy.

Another area I see might be causing your problems is how you neck size. When you partially neck size you create two problems. Eventually this grows and becomes a donut and you may actually be headspacing off this. Since your die will not be sizing concentrically around the neck, you can force the chambered rd to be cockeyed.

Remember that you only need to have inconsistent chambering of a few thou from rd to rd to send the bullets into wide groups.

Best thing is to size the entire length of the neck using a collet or bushing die and headspacing off the shoulder. This will be far more consistent and true.

Check the throat length. The bullet must fully engrave in the lands before leaving the neck. If there is any jump, you will never shoot tight groups.

If you like the action and stock, rebarreling or setting the barrel back is not a bad idea. Setting back doesn't cost that much (ask GunTech) and will restore accuracy as much as that pipe is capable of.

If you really want a tack driver, you may want to consider a full up rebuild. But if you do that, you may be better off selling the Rem as is, getting a Stevens and going from there. You will spend less money at the end, have a BR quality rig, and a modular action that you can do whatever you want to in the future.

Jerry
 
I am getting 2620 FPS (AVG) out of my 20" LTR(308) with 44.5 grs of IMR 4895 pushing 175gr SMK's


Jamie Barkwell
 
Check your bolt lugs, if they are not sharing the load when you close the bolt the bolt face will not be inline with the axis of the barrel. George
 
i havn't encountered any issues neck sizing my 243 and 204. i do them the same way, some have been loaded 12 or more times. the 243 still shoots .2's the 204 stays in the .4 range. i will consider collet dies if i do a rebuild.

i think i will stick with the rem if i rebuild. i can open the stock to fit a heavy barrel the fore end is pretty wide, the stevens have a narrow fore end that would be tough to open up. with the price of a new stock that gets up to what my 700 is worth now.

i have checked throat length a few times, it hasn't changed. i seat .1 off the lands, seems to work best. the bullets are out there, but still feed in the magazine.

i checked the lugs by putting black marker on the lug face and closing the bolt. the marker wore off pretty evenly. not sure if that was an accurate test though.

just a refresher i have bedded the action, floated the barrel, honed and tuned the trigger to about 2lbs, 3 different scopes, 2 different sets of rings and bases and a few odds and ends. before i did that work the best it would do was 1.25". i'm pretty satisfied that the work i did is getting the most out of the rifle. it shoots .75 now. i shoot off a good benck with front and rear sand bags. i've tried so many combinations of bullets and powder i would have to get my log book to could them all.
 
rmkm70 said:
i am seeking advise from people with experience.

i bought a rem 700 BDL in 222 a few years ago. its a really nice gun, but after firing nearly 1000 test rounds(of handloads) i can't get it tighter that .75 moa. thats not good enough for my taste. Oh ya, the Barrel is floated, action bedded and trigger honed and tuned.

the question. should i spend the $900 to customise what i have or get rid of it and get a factory heavy barrel gun?

its not my loads that shoot crooked, i load for my 3006, 243 and 204, all shoot under .5.
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have you had the crown checked out?
 
rmkm70 said:
i havn't encountered any issues neck sizing my 243 and 204. i do them the same way, some have been loaded 12 or more times. the 243 still shoots .2's the 204 stays in the .4 range. i will consider collet dies if i do a rebuild.

i think i will stick with the rem if i rebuild. i can open the stock to fit a heavy barrel the fore end is pretty wide, the stevens have a narrow fore end that would be tough to open up. with the price of a new stock that gets up to what my 700 is worth now.

i have checked throat length a few times, it hasn't changed. i seat .1 off the lands, seems to work best. the bullets are out there, but still feed in the magazine.

i checked the lugs by putting black marker on the lug face and closing the bolt. the marker wore off pretty evenly. not sure if that was an accurate test though.

just a refresher i have bedded the action, floated the barrel, honed and tuned the trigger to about 2lbs, 3 different scopes, 2 different sets of rings and bases and a few odds and ends. before i did that work the best it would do was 1.25". i'm pretty satisfied that the work i did is getting the most out of the rifle. it shoots .75 now. i shoot off a good benck with front and rear sand bags. i've tried so many combinations of bullets and powder i would have to get my log book to could them all.
Click to expand...

I had a .308 factory barrel in my 788 Rem hunting rifle; was a POS that never shot better than 1 inch. Swapped it out for a nice stainless match barrel, now shoots SST hunting 150g bullets fairly consistently into .3" Get rid of the POS barrel and replace it with a nice semi BB profile stainless and solve the problem once and for all.

I load for all my rifles and got the best group sizes with bullets rammed right into the lands. I don't magazine load, so I don't care about the mag fit of my rounds. I set them so I can see a mark on the bullet bearing surface when I extract the test cartridge, but not hard enough to have to force the bolt home or anything rad like that.

Regards,

N_R
 
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Is the barrel free floated all the way to the action? Is the bottom of the recoil lug touching (it should not). Some rifles shoot better if the bottom of the barrel shank is bedded 1-2 inches long. I take it you have made sure there is no moisture between the action and bedding? and the action is torqued to 65 in lbs?
Forget mag length, seat the bullets to touch the lands or just slightly off. Maybe around .005-.010 Jumping .100" into the lands is a long way.
 
Questions from a newb -

Why no moisture between action and bedding?

How do you relieve the bedding around the bottom of the recoil lug? Will a dremel just make a mess of things? :)

Is 65 in-lbs the same as ~5.5 ft-lbs?
 
Keebler750 said:
Questions from a newb -

Why no moisture between action and bedding?

How do you relieve the bedding around the bottom of the recoil lug? Will a dremel just make a mess of things? :)

Is 65 in-lbs the same as ~5.5 ft-lbs?
Click to expand...

Moisture between the action and bedding will have a hydraulic effect. The rifle will shoot like lightening (never it the same place twice). Once it is wiped dry it will shoot OK again. Remington actions are notoriuos for this as the front action screw hole comes through the action. Oil and cleaning solvents will seep through.

If the rifle was bedded properly there should be clearence under the recoil lug. It would be easy the check and careful use of a dremel tool will work.
 
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Heh heh.

I just bedded mine and haven't really cleaned it up for flash or whatever. I bet the recoil lug is touching.

Also, after removing the mold release compound I lightly oiled the action and reinstalled it in the stock....

Not good?

:redface:

I'm finding this a very informative thread...
 
Depends on what "lightly" means. I wipe things down with a dry cloth before reassembling. You can use a little chisel to scrape the bottom of the recoil lug seat. to generate slight clearance.
 
typing error, i load .01 off the lands. i don't load for the magazine, it just happened to still fit.

the barrel is bedded 1" infront of the recoil lug. the bottom of the lug is touching bedding. i'll fix that.

i use very little oil on the reciever inside the stock. i wipe it before i install aswell.

i was sick of it a while ago, but the value of it now is what it would cost me to get an action to build a custom on.
 
rmkm70 said:
the barrel is bedded 1" infront of the recoil lug. the bottom of the lug is touching bedding. i'll fix that.
Click to expand...

I had a Rremington 700 in 6 BR that was bedded 1" in front of the lug. It shot much better when I removed that bedding. None of my rifles are bedded ahead of the lug.

NormB
 
Norm,
None of my rifles are bedded beyond the recoil lug either, but I have seen some where it did help. It won't turn a 3 MOA rifle into a 1/2 MOA rifle but may help a 3/4 MOA rifle shoot 1/2 MOA.

Keebler750, When bedding the action I find 2 layers of tape on the bottom of the recoil lug and 1 layer on the front and sides work best. Nothing on the back of the recoil lug. Keep the bottom of the action dry and see how it shoots. If all else fails maybe the barrel is gone, they make great tomato stakes in the garden or can be used as a jackhandle:D
 
For my bedding, I do bed 1 to 2" in front of the action on some of my rifles. Never had a problem. I go as far forward as needed to help the action support the weight of the barrel.

I am not sure where taping the recoil lug became popular but I suspect that was due to smiths not wanting the hassle during removal.

Bedding has to have a few components to be effective:

1) it has to be a stress free fit. The action should not bend when the action screws are tightened. This requires a glove tight level fit.

2) The recoil lug must be bedded as tightly as possible on as many sides as possible. The reason is that the recoil lug controls not only the backwards motion but also the roll of the action. If there are gaps on the sides of the lug, the only thing holding the action in place for roll are the action screws.

Not a good thing as they are not designed for this task and the screw holes are usually oversized allowing for a lot of slop. It doesn't take much movement to affect your groups.

Look into the screw holes in the stock. If you have sloppy bedding and you have shot the rifle a bit, you will see burn marks or thread indentations in these holes. This shows that they are moving and vibrating during firing. Not good.

To test your bedding, loosen and tighten the action screws. do you feel any movement on the action. Some are badly enough done that you can see the action go up and down. Usually the mega dollar alum v block stocks do this the most.

Worst alum chassis stock I bedded needed 1/8" of bedding to level the action in the stock. that is alot of bending at 65inlbs of torque

Secondly, take the action screws out. Can you move the action in the stock in any direction. If there is any wiggling, the bedding is of little use.

When I do my bedding, usually with pillars, the action drops into the stock with a nice clunk. It is held firmly enough that the action cannot move at all even without the action screws. It feels solid enough to shoot as is.

the action screws holds these two pieces together. It should not be a stress member. Any stock that requires high torque be applied on these screws is of poor design. The stock maker is depending on the action screw and the crush of the action in the loose bedding to hold thing together. Bad news.

When the pillars and bedding are correct, an action screw will go from loose to rock solid in 1/2 turn with a screwdriver (hand tightened). It will also not loosen with use.

Jerry
 
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