Possibly to much neck tension?

D

dead meat

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I have the miserable job of pulling some bullets, the reason is not important. I pulled a few with my old Pacific collet style puller in the press, i have to crank on it so hard it deforms the bullets. Switch to a wack a mole style of puller, using a shell holder to hold the cases, first batch of 15 required from 7 to 10 wacks on the concrete floor. One particularly case wase so stubborn it took 15 wacks and deformed the case head.
I use an older set of Bonanza dies to reload these 22-250 cases.

So my question is there to much neck tension? I haven't measured the amount that the cases are sized to and haven't got to much into precision loading for this ammo as it's gopher/coyote loads that group 3/4 and under at 100 yards, plenty accurate in the Rem 783. Should i be investing in mandrils to set neck tension?
 
From the Lee "Modern Reloading - 2nd Edition" - Richard Lee is saying that a case neck should be sized with interior diameter about 0.002" smaller than the bullet diameter - as I understand what he wrote, that means you are within the "elastic" range for the brass - the neck will "spring back" to original size if the bullet is pulled out. If you squish the neck down more, then you likely go beyond that "elastic" region, and "deform" or "re-form" the case neck brass - meaning if you squish it smaller, you are NOT getting more neck tension - seating the bullet into a smaller neck diameter is stretching the neck brass out beyond it's elastic capability. It has been my practice to measure a sized brass with calliper - to 0.001" diameter on outside - the dies and bullets I use result in the neck never being more that 0.002" larger than original with a bullet seated. I have not fussed beyond that, although I see some used die sets that I bought have got more than one size expander ball in there - is possible that was provided by some makers, or someone was "playing".

I believe certain cartridges like 7.62x39 might shoot better in particular rifles with 0.308" bullets, or 0.3100" bullets, or 0.3105" bullets, or 0.3110" bullets - I suspect each diameter bullet requires a specific case neck sizing to maintain the same neck tension - or it is possible that the neck tension is different, one bullet diameter to another, and that is why the groups are better or worse with different diameter bullets. I have no clue if that fussing makes 1" group size difference or 0.005" group size difference. One of those deals where it is sort of up to you to prove what you and your gear can produce - up to you to show to yourself if there is a difference, that is significant to you or not - what I do with my gear, or someone else does with their gear, has not much to do with your results.

Without going too overboard, there is multiple things influencing your group size - your ability to build and hold a sight picture and break the trigger without moving - and to hold still while the bullet is travelling up the bore - bedding of that action, quality and dimensions of that barrel, condition of rifling / fouling, condition of muzzle, any "buzzing" or looseness in the stock or the rings or the scope, and so on.
 
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I could be wrong but not too likely its tension. Lots of things can cause corrosion on the micro level. From oil off you fingers, case lube, even electrical from the combination of carbon and the different metals in the case and bullet. If I'm running in to hard to pull bullets I run them through the seating die set up to bump the bullet down a 1/8" or so, they'll come out easy after that.
 
Agreed, I pulled a bunch of norc x54r and between the crimp and the sealer around the bullet they were hard to pull with a collet puller in my bigger single stages press. Seating them a bit deeper helped to break the sealant, you could hear the snap. It was much easier after that to pull them.
 
^^ Yep. I had read that seating the bullet a smidgeon deeper will break sealant, "cold welding", etc. and make bullet pulling easier. I have never crimped bullets on centre-fire rifles - only relied on the "neck tension" to hold the bullet in place, but I see and have read of various other ways of getting that done.
 
adamg said:
Lighter bullets are more difficult to pull than heavier ones, with the kinetic puller.
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They also have less bearing surface to grip with a collet puller and often require the use of an inertia puller

OP, instead of banging away on concrete, which can easily cause your inertia hammer to shatter, get yourself a lump of lead to pound on.

The lead will work in a similar manner as a dead-fall hammer, absorbing the shock but still allowing the energy transfer needed to unseat the bullets.
 
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Well the seating the bullet slightly deeper was a waste of time, didn't help a damn bit. I do have a big 25 lb lead weight to beat on. Got nothing to lose but a bit of time.
 
Potashminer said:
^^ Yep. I had read that seating the bullet a smidgeon deeper will break sealant, "cold welding", etc. and make bullet pulling easier. I have never crimped bullets on centre-fire rifles - only relied on the "neck tension" to hold the bullet in place, but I see and have read of various other ways of getting that done.
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The x54r I have was supposedly machine gun ammo so I’m expecting it has a decent crimp.
 
Got a 25lb lump of lead to hammer on......same results. 15 to 22 wacks. My poor arthritic hand can't take much more of this abuse. Good thing i only have 10 more to beat on. Even tried seating one a hair deeper then beat on the lead.....21 hits for the win.
 
Light bullets will be harder to pull than heavier bullets using the hammer puller. It's about momentum.
 
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dead meat said:
Got a 25lb lump of lead to hammer on......same results. 15 to 22 wacks. My poor arthritic hand can't take much more of this abuse. Good thing i only have 10 more to beat on. Even tried seating one a hair deeper then beat on the lead.....21 hits for the win.
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That may be but it's much easier on your inertia hammer.
 
bearhunter said:
OP, instead of banging away on concrete, which can easily cause your inertia hammer to shatter, get yourself a lump of lead to pound on.
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Sorry but I have pulled literally thousands of bullets using an inertia puller on the concrete floor and broke exactly one in 45 years of doing it. I'm in to 20 years on my current one (RCBS all plastic model) and it's still going strong. Concrete is no worse on it than any other hard surface.
 
ted_dent said:
Sorry but I have pulled literally thousands of bullets using an inertia puller on the concrete floor and broke exactly one in 45 years of doing it. I'm in to 20 years on my current one (RCBS all plastic model) and it's still going strong. Concrete is no worse on it than any other hard surface.
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I wish I had your luck.
 
dead meat said:
Puller is very hard on the bullets, would like to save them as well.
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A collet puller is simple to use, fast, and does not damage bullets if the bullet is given just a tiny nudge deeper with the seating die first. You can sometimes hear the crack as the bullet breaks free from the case.

As well, there is no problem recovering the powder from the case.

Ted
 
Just a thought: if you only tried a hair deeper, if that sucker is really stuck (which seems obvious), a hair may not have been enough to break it free and may have only flexed what could flex, or deformed and sprung back. Bit of a long shot, I know.

Move that bullet .050" deeper and try extraction again. Just spitballing....
 
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