Powder coated bullet max velocity?

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Freyr_255

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Just wondering if anyone has information regarding powder coated cast bullets and maximum driving velocity using WW alloy. It seems like powder coating should significantly increase achievable velocity without leading issues but I can't find any information on it through searching online.

For the record I have some powder coated bullets that I've been driving at about 1650fps without issue out of my Rossi 1892 in 454 casull. I'm mostly curious as I have some 30 cal ones I made up some years back and figure I should get around to playing with one of these days. Given the performance I've seen out of what I've shot over the last few years for powder coat retention during firing it would be speculatively achievable to get full rifle velocities(2500-2700fps) out of a powder coated bullet without leading issues. Does anyone have an input on this?
 
I have yet to get into casting or powder coating myself, but I've been trying to do a lot of reading... so having said that: doesn't pressure also affect it as well, not just velocity?
 
I shoot the 280gr NOE bullet, powder coated, with a load of 50 grains of WC-845 (basically a surplus H335), in the 9.3x62. That should give just over 2000fps. No issues, and good groups. I haven't chrony'd it, though.
 
Thanks for the input. I'll have to experiment as now that it's mentioned the groups are opening up, I'm realizing that rotational forces will likely limit the velocity based on barrel twist since it doesn't have a copper jacket to hold it together. I was mostly thinking of leading issues, which seem to be non existent with powder coating relative to using lubes. Hell, I think it's even cleaner than copper jacketing lol!

mactroneng said:
I have yet to get into casting or powder coating myself, but I've been trying to do a lot of reading... so having said that: doesn't pressure also affect it as well, not just velocity?
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Pressure will affect things as well. It causes bullet deformation and with a soft lead bullet it could cause a pressure spike in the throat if it deforms too much. That said, it's lead and will swage quite easily. The copper actually adds a fair amount of structural integrity to the bullet, but I think a lot of manufacturers use an almost pure lead core because they swage the bullets together. So hard cast lead vs swaged jacket...I'm not enough of an expert to comment on how they compare. Generally though in casting, pressure was considered to mostly affect leading as it'll mash the lead into the walls of the bore harder as it goes down the barrel, creating more friction. This is where the different lubes and waxes came into play. I'm sure everyone has a different thought on what affects what, but suffice to say it's a complex system.

Since I've started powder coating, which was like...5 years ago I think...I'll never do anything else. A margarine container, teflon coated aluminum foil, and a toaster oven are all it takes. Don't over think it too much. Although, in experimenting, every colour and brand is different and will coat and perform differently. A different colour in the same brand and type will perform differently from each other one in the series. Essentially you have to experiment a bit to find the best ones for even coating and thickness/retention. Although a pound of powder is like a lifetime supply lol!
 
As I've reported earlier, I've achieved 2400+ f/s with my .30/30 and got eight out of ten shots into 1 + 3/4 inch at 50 yards.
This was with iron sights and a 34 inch barrel. The bore stayed nice and shiny. The alloy was 1/2 lino and 1/2 wheel weights.

While not exceptional accuracy, it is very good for that velocity.
It emphasizes the importance of bullet selection and care in loading that is required.
With powder coating, the limits of cast bullet performance haven't yet been reached.
 
slug said:
As I've reported earlier, I've achieved 2400+ f/s with my .30/30 and got eight out of ten shots into 1 + 3/4 inch at 50 yards.
This was with iron sights and a 34 inch barrel. The bore stayed nice and shiny. The alloy was 1/2 lino and 1/2 wheel weights.

While not exceptional accuracy, it is very good for that velocity.
It emphasizes the importance of bullet selection and care in loading that is required.
With powder coating, the limits of cast bullet performance haven't yet been reached.
Click to expand...

I have kept powder coated cast bullets within alox lube velocities.
Charlie Darnel has told me that powder coat allowed him to match jacketed bullet velocity and an accuracy.
I am not sure which powder Charlie was using. Bake on or two part epoxy. he could not remember the brand.
My goal is 0.367" 200 gr gas check (accurate molds) powder coated bullet out of 9.3X57 at 2450 fps using lyman #2 alloy.
Snow, wind, and cold have interrupted that quest.
 
10x said:
I have kept powder coated cast bullets within alox lube velocities.
Charlie Darnel has told me that powder coat allowed him to match jacketed bullet velocity and an accuracy.
I am not sure which powder Charlie was using. Bake on or two part epoxy. he could not remember the brand.
My goal is 0.367" 200 gr gas check (accurate molds) powder coated bullet out of 9.3X57 at 2450 fps using lyman #2 alloy.
Snow, wind, and cold have interrupted that quest.
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I can tell you with certainty that the bake on powder coating I've be using will hold up through firing and impact. Recovered bullets have historically shown amazing powder coat retention. However, I would speculate that brand will make a difference in overall performance since I've noted even changing colours within a brand/type will alter coating properties. I can't for the life of me tell you what I ordered though, as it's been a long time since I bought some. The best I've got for coating is just a basic cheap blue and basic cheap red though. The fancier stuff just doesn't coat as well from what I've seen.
 
Freyr_255 said:
I can tell you with certainty that the bake on powder coating I've be using will hold up through firing and impact. Recovered bullets have historically shown amazing powder coat retention. However, I would speculate that brand will make a difference in overall performance since I've noted even changing colours within a brand/type will alter coating properties. I can't for the life of me tell you what I ordered though, as it's been a long time since I bought some. The best I've got for coating is just a basic cheap blue and basic cheap red though. The fancier stuff just doesn't coat as well from what I've seen.
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Generally I find the cheap stuff to give a good durable coat. I would like to know which powder Charles Darnell was using and his alloys.
Also the mold he used.
A Loverin style bullet can be pushed faster with alox without an increase in group size than a bullet with much less rifling bearing surface - the bullet weight being equal.

I also have found that group sizes have dropped.
I do not know if the ductile strength of the cast alloy will be improved by powder coat allowing higher velocities. I do know that in the past bullet alloy and hardness allowed higher velocity with alox lubes and the softer the alloy the lower the speed limit before groups started to get larger.

IO have used powders from Emerald coatings, Princess auto, and KMS tools - all give pretty much the same coverage with shake and bake.
The KMS powder instructions are to preheat the oven to 400F then put the bullets in and lower it to 375.
I do use a PID controlled (Kitchen aid) toaster oven - $3.00 at a thrift store.
I have yet to find a powder that does not coat well.
Some take a two minute shake, some 5 minutes - for all powders 10 minutes of shake puts too much on -
Humidity here is extremely low. I have found that powder coating on rainy days makes for what seems to be a thinner coat, I just shake a couple of minutes longer to compensate on wet days.
 
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10x said:
Generally I find the cheap stuff to give a good durable coat. I would like to know which powder Charles Darnell was using and his alloys.
Also the mold he used.
A Loverin style bullet can be pushed faster with alox without an increase in group size than a bullet with much less rifling bearing surface - the bullet weight being equal.

I also have found that group sizes have dropped.
I do not know if the ductile strength of the cast alloy will be improved by powder coat allowing higher velocities. I do know that in the past bullet alloy and hardness allowed higher velocity with alox lubes and the softer the alloy the lower the speed limit before groups started to get larger.

IO have used powders from Emerald coatings, Princess auto, and KMS tools - all give pretty much the same coverage with shake and bake.
The KMS powder instructions are to preheat the oven to 400F then put the bullets in and lower it to 375.
I do use a PID controlled (Kitchen aid) toaster oven - $3.00 at a thrift store.
I have yet to find a powder that does not coat well.
Some take a two minute shake, some 5 minutes - for all powders 10 minutes of shake puts too much on -
Humidity here is extremely low. I have found that powder coating on rainy days makes for what seems to be a thinner coat, I just shake a couple of minutes longer to compensate on wet days.
Click to expand...

Ya I've noticed humidity is a big factor in coating. I'm mostly thinking of a red and purple I got at the same time, of the same variety, that were translucent. The purple was really good and the red coated horribly. I couldn't get more than a thin pinkish layering out of it that was distinctly very thin.

What you point out about rifling and spin being a limiting factor is a really good point. I never thought about the structural integrity of the bullet while it's spin is being accelerated. It seems quite reasonable that the engagement with the lands could let go if there was too much shear force applied as it was being pushed down the barrel. I like the loverin style bullets as the difference in bearing surface area seems like it would be a major plus.

I was actually meaning to up the tin content of the stuff I'm going to use to do this with, as it's a little suspect on overall alloy. There were quite a few stick on weights that made it into this latest batch of lead. I think I had at least 50% throw away or more. It was really bad lol! I'll have to find my hardness tester now....god...I haven't looked for that think in years...
 
Tin only bff helps with mold fill. Add some #7 extra hard shot to increase hardness. You want antimony to offset the softness of the pure.

I've gone to using a powder coating gun for my high velocity bullets. Works great on small items around the shop too. :)
 
I recently tried some of Princess Auto's red powder and it didn't adhere worth beans. I was coating a bunch of unknown bullets that a friend had inherited and was going to do half in Tool Blue and half in red.
The red was quickly replaced with Tool Blue and I gave the red to a friend with a more adventurous soul. Tool Blue and clear work so well that those are all that I use.

I recently picked up a vintage Savage 99 in .250/3000, so I'll try to push up the velocity a bit further this spring.
 
.339 cal coated in princess auto blue, 220 gr bullet gas checked is leaving my barrel over 2000 fps. Out of my .338 Savage lapua magnum. When the 72 inches of snow melts I'll chronograph it.
 
yomomma said:
Tin only bff helps with mold fill. Add some #7 extra hard shot to increase hardness. You want antimony to offset the softness of the pure.

I've gone to using a powder coating gun for my high velocity bullets. Works great on small items around the shop too. :)
Click to expand...

Right. I knew that. Just been a long time since I've done anything other than just cast pistol bullets for low velocity use. Thanks for the refresher. I guess maybe I should go re read a bunch of stuff. Lol!
 
Emerald Coatings “Tool blue” & “clear” are the PC standard, but EC is just so far away & Princess Auto is not.

I experimented with adding some small amounts of the Princess Auto Chi-com red to the blue & clear with mild success. The pinks & purple colours added a nice Liberal inclusive diversity to my wad cutters & SWC’s. Ha ha.....
 
hatman1793 said:
Emerald Coatings “Tool blue” & “clear” are the PC standard, but EC is just so far away & Princess Auto is not.

I experimented with adding some small amounts of the Princess Auto Chi-com red to the blue & clear with mild success. The pinks & purple colours added a nice Liberal inclusive diversity to my wad cutters & SWC’s. Ha ha.....
Click to expand...


A short treatise on powder coat. It is all a stronger covering than alox lubes, and is also cleaner (no greasy feel)

https://www.pcimag.com/articles/93859-mechanical-properties-and-adhesion-of-several-powder-coatings
 
No fouling 2400fps in 9.3x57 cast w clear pc. Could be the rifle though, it was clean at 2200fps with non-pc regular cast bullets.
 
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