Powder gone bad ????

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I bought some powder 5+ years ago from Higginsons, of course I didn't record the #s :roll: but it was what I deducted was some bulk Vitrahoy 160???. Anyway, went to reload some moose loads with my fav recipte & find this red rust looking powder over the top of the outside of the plastic powder containers I used to store the stuff! It's also inside on the cap. It obviously is a gas that must be escaping from the container! The smell is not ammonia but I surely can't describe what it smells like :shock:

Any explainations on what is going on :?:

Another strange occurance that just dawned on me :roll: is that my moose loads that I have been using for a few years with said powder now produce extreme pressure signs :!: :!: Sticky bolt lift & in one case.. blown primer :shock: . I just finished pulling remaining loads & reloaded with less powder, will see what happens at the range soons as I can get there.
 
First off, if you have to GUESS what powder it is, get rid of it.

Secondly, the red rust indicates that the powder has indeed deteriorated, get rid of it.

RePete.
 
senior,

The red dust combined with the "bad" smell, acrid is the correct term as stated by willwagspal, is definitely telling you to spread it on the lawn (or in your wife's house plants).

Wish I could advise you to use it, but you must get rid of it, and not store it any longer. :(

I researched this extensively a few months ago, because I had always heard that one needed to get rid of deteriorating powder, but never any reasons given as to why it was a concern.

The main problem is the burning rate changes as the powder deteriorates, so you really don't know what you are working with.

The greatest danger with deteriorating powder, however, is auto-ignition where the powder self ignites without any exterior source. It is rare, but does happen.

Ted
 
First off, if you have to GUESS what powder it is, get rid of it.
Click to expand...

Most bulk powders you purchase at Higginsons is "guess what you got"
Once you establish a burning rate you load accordingly!
eg. anybody got a reloading charts for wc845 or 47N or 47SL10??

Concensis is get rid of it, so :cry:
Seems as though it has gone bad rather fast?? I've had other powders stored for much longer times!!
 
senior said:
.....Most bulk powders you purchase at Higginsons is "guess what you got"
Once you establish a burning rate you load accordingly!
Click to expand...

Not really. I have used bulk and surplus powder from them for more than thirty years with no problem at all. Back then the company was called "XeleX."

Just by following their comparative burning rate, which was always quite conservative, and working up from there, it was simple and quick to figure out.

This, of course, is what you are referring to. The burning rate of decomposing powder, however, is constantly changing so you never really have an established stable burning rate.

I am curious as to the temp where you stored it. If it was in the heavy plastic bag they send it in, it should not have been affected by humidity.

Also, how quickly does the acrid odour return after the bag has been opened, allowed to air out for a few minutes and then resealed?

Ted
 
I stored it in empty relabeled plastic or tin powder cans in my gun room at average 65* temps with a dehumidifier going all the time.

I guess the "guess what you got" statement is a little not quite what I meant :roll:
For instance I believe the 47SL10 is a military surplus slow burning H-414!maybe :roll: but as such you pretty much have to decifer your own load data because I have never seen much listed & Higginsons is not real accurate (my opinion) :mrgreen: & is only a burning rate comparison.

Anybody want to attend a 4-5lb bondfire :roll: :mrgreen:
 
I purchased some bulk powder from Higginson about 12 years ago ... was a lot of "Use 3031 data" powder ... after about 6-7 years of storage in it's sealed plastic bag (admittedly not the best conditions - sometimes pretty warm and humid) it exhibited the same conditions you describe -- orange dust and acrid smell also the plastic bag started to disintegrate. It was a write-off. So I got rid of it. DO NOT (repeat) DO NOT pour it on your lawn despite what you may be told. The result is you will "burn" the lawn where it is distributed in any quantity (even relatively small amounts) and it will not grow grass in those spots for a while - been there - done that. Now I burn small quantities of powder - I like to run a trail of it about 1/2 -1 inch high along a dirt path --- just like the old cowboy movies did with a keg of black powder ... and put a match to it ... burns fairly quickly and not out of control... AP
 
I have 4lbs of the new WC735 they are now selling that I'm having problems with. I originally bought 1lb to test and it was pretty good in eveything I tried, .223, 22/250, 8mm, and 7.5x55 so I bought 4lbs of it. I had 3 failures to ignite in 30/06, the primer went off enough to push the bullet into the rifling but the powder didn't ignite. Also was getting very inconsistant velocities and pressures, in 8mm for example I would get a bad gas seal for 4 or 5 rounds and 2200fps, then a round would hit 2600fps and I'd have pressure signs on the case......
It's all from the same lot, all loads I already worked up, I can't blame anything else but the powder. It looks fine although it is light and dark grey of different sized granules, and it smells like rubbing alcohol. They weren't very enthusiastic about taking it back so it will be going in the firepit......
Personally, that's it for my experimenting with surplus bulk powder.
 
Hitzy wrote
dark grey of different sized granules, and it smells like rubbing alcohol
Click to expand...
... I don't think the smell is necessarily bad .. I have some new powders that have a slight alcohol smell.. BUT the different size granules would be an issue for me... usually ... particularly IMR powders .. the burn rate is determined by the size/surface area of the granules... this is generally not a good sign ... has anyone mixed it you think? AP
 
senior said:
I stored it in empty relabeled plastic or tin powder cans in my gun room at average 65* temps with a dehumidifier going all the time.................Anybody want to attend a 4-5lb bondfire
Click to expand...

Well, that is too bad. I would have thought powder stored in those conditions would have lasted 20 years.

I have some surplus ammo that was made in 1942 and it still works perfectly. I shoot it occasionally for practice and have not even had a mis-fire.

Ted
 
I think some (many?) powders will last a long long time if stored properly. However I think one of the challenges that Higginson Powder faces (and I am glad they around or we would be paying through the nose for our powder) is that when they buy surplus powder they cannot necessarily be absolutely sure of how well it was stored before they got it. No doubt their source will assure them it was kept in perfect conditions ... not sitting in a bunker in the Mojave desert at temperatures averaging 125 F. ... anyway I also suspect (don't know for sure) that some powder formulations are more at risk of early deterioration than others fwiw ... AP
 
That's very strange (and dishartening). I'm going to run out of WC845 soon and I would buy it from you if shipping were not such a ##### (we are allowed to say that word, aren't we? :? )

Any chance that the dies/bullets/powder measure got contaminated during cleaning?

I wonder if this problem will persist. Anybody else having this problem with WC735?

Hitzy said:
I have 4lbs of the new WC735 they are now selling that I'm having problems with. I originally bought 1lb to test and it was pretty good in eveything I tried, .223, 22/250, 8mm, and 7.5x55 so I bought 4lbs of it. I had 3 failures to ignite in 30/06, the primer went off enough to push the bullet into the rifling but the powder didn't ignite. Also was getting very inconsistant velocities and pressures, in 8mm for example I would get a bad gas seal for 4 or 5 rounds and 2200fps, then a round would hit 2600fps and I'd have pressure signs on the case......
It's all from the same lot, all loads I already worked up, I can't blame anything else but the powder. It looks fine although it is light and dark grey of different sized granules, and it smells like rubbing alcohol. They weren't very enthusiastic about taking it back so it will be going in the firepit......
Personally, that's it for my experimenting with surplus bulk powder.
Click to expand...
 
I would think it possable that surplus powders have been sitting for several years already before Higginsons sells them so that may be a potential problem. I would think most fresh batches stored cool and dry would not have any problems for many years.

Hitzy, have you contacted Higginson and told them of your problem ?? I have found them good to deal with and I would think if you are not happy with it they will make it right with you. :|

nitehawk55
 
From Hogdons site:
Original link

Q. How do I tell if my powder has gone bad?

A. There are two tests for determining if powder has gone bad.
(1) Open the can and smell the powder. A sweet, solvent smell like alcohol, acetone or ether is fine. No odor is OK. A sour, acid smell that makes you pull your nose away from the powder is a sure sign the powder has gone bad.
(2) Pour a little powder out onto a white sheet of paper and look at it. Gray, black, and silver are normal colors with external graphite added. This is a good color. Our newer, Extreme line of extruded powders may have a green or tan tint. This is the natural color of the powder without heavy graphite coating. This is a good color. If your powder looks like it has a red, rust like dust on it, the powder is bad.
If you find that your powder has a bad smell or looks bad, remove it from the house immediately and dispose of it.[/url]
 
N160

I bought the same powder from Higginson. Vit..... N160, at the same time. I stop using it. When I went back to using it this summer, I encounter the same conditions. A friend (ex-artillery) said the powder was still good to use but I decided to get rid of the powder by throwing it on top of the anthills in my lawn and cooking the little buggers. By the way, don't stand over the powder when you light it. there is no explosions but what a hot hot and high flame. Quite spectacular at night.
 
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