Practice to call corrections on target

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Black Jack

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I would like to go to Tactical Teacher's clinic this june and was trying to understand the corrections of shots. I normally just shoot at 300yds so it's fairly easy because it's not far. I have a bushnell Elite 6-24 scope with mildot. This scope is 1/8" per click @100yds. The turrets are marked 1, 2, 3 at every 8 click. So if I understand that correctly those are MOA. So 1 click is 1/8" @100yds, 1/4" @200yds 1/2" @300yds.... or #1 on the turret is 1" @100yds, 2" @200yds. I have a total of 48 "clicks" on the turret for a full rotation=6" at 100yds.

So let's pretend we are shooting at 300yds and we hit 6" low. How are you suppose to call that to be effective. "You hit 6" low" and then you "click" 12 times on your elevation to get your point of aim and point of impact together. If it's done in MOA, how do you call that? Do you always convert inches to moa to dial in? It's all good when close but if you have a situation you have to dial in 52 clicks or 87 clicks. What then? How is the proper way to call and dial in with MOA. After you have your DOPE card on your gun it's ok but you still have to correct if the range is not what you dialed in for.

So how do you guys who do this regularly communicate with the spotter to be effective and not having to use your calculator for every shot. I tried to find information on the net about ways to do this but everywhere I checked it's formula after formula and calling MOA and inches and converting by multiplying by this and by that. All great on paper and great for guys who are really good with math in their heads but....sorry I'm not good enough. So what are the practical ways of doing this?? Hope what I'm asking makes sense to somebody. ;)
 
I don't think there's a "better" method, as long as the communication is clear between the spotter and the shooter. If the spotter calls "inches off", then the firer is responsible for the MOA calculations. If the spotter calls of the fall of the shot in MOA, then he's making the calculations and the shooter has to trust him to do it right.

This is just a suspicion, but I think most shooters prefer to make their own calculations and just want the spotter to call the distances. Part of the fun of shooting!
 
First rule is to not talk in inches or meters... use angular measurement like MOA or MRAD. Either doesn't matter just make sure you are both using the same unit.

If you are field shooting, the spotter should have a spotter or scope with the grid or picket fence reticle so he can measure POA vs POI... just like a ruler. The spotter will then call out a correction in the unit of measure and you as a shooter can either dial or use your reticle to hold off.

There is no math involved... or at least there shouldn't be.

So I am spotting for you and our reticles are set up to subtend the same unit of measure. You make a center hold on the target and a proper centered break. The shot, as I see it in my scope, lands 1 hash mark to the left. I call aim 1 hash mark right (the needed correction NOT where the bullet landed)... the spotter tells the shooter where to aim next to put the bullet on target.

The shooters doesn't need to think about any math... just make the correction and break another perfect shot. This one is a hit.

Spotter calls the hit and can either call the same hold off or if conditions are steady, ask for a correction on the scope.

If the shooter doesn't have a reticle with the same subtension as the spotter, the spotter calls in unit measure the correction and the shooter can dial the scope or hold off the proper amount.

So in the example above, the spotter hash marks are 2MOA apart.. the shooter is 1.5MOA apart. The spotter calls hold 2 mins right... the shooter then has to decide to dial for center hold or hold off with his reticle and account for the 1/2 min off target or a combo of both

If there is elevation involved, spotter needs to be very clear as to where to put the reticle... something like hold 1 hash mark right, top of the target.

As opposed to "aim a bunch right and a bit high"... always deal in units not estimates.

In team shooting, the role of the shooter is to shoot... the role of the spotter/wind coach is to call or make the corrections on the scope.

If shooting on a paper target, the scoring line typically have an MOA value so you can use that as a grid.

For field shooting it is far better to have a proper reticle then to say " hold a bit left of the rock"... what is a bit... which rock?

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
First rule is to not talk in inches or meters... use angular measurement like MOA or MRAD. Either doesn't matter just make sure you are both using the same unit.

If you are field shooting, the spotter should have a spotter or scope with the grid or picket fence reticle so he can measure POA vs POI... just like a ruler. The spotter will then call out a correction in the unit of measure and you as a shooter can either dial or use your reticle to hold off.

There is no math involved... or at least there shouldn't be.

So I am spotting for you and our reticles are set up to subtend the same unit of measure. You make a center hold on the target and a proper centered break. The shot, as I see it in my scope, lands 1 hash mark to the left. I call aim 1 hash mark right (the needed correction NOT where the bullet landed)... the spotter tells the shooter where to aim next to put the bullet on target.

The shooters doesn't need to think about any math... just make the correction and break another perfect shot. This one is a hit.

Spotter calls the hit and can either call the same hold off or if conditions are steady, ask for a correction on the scope.

If the shooter doesn't have a reticle with the same subtension as the spotter, the spotter calls in unit measure the correction and the shooter can dial the scope or hold off the proper amount.

So in the example above, the spotter hash marks are 2MOA apart.. the shooter is 1.5MOA apart. The spotter calls hold 2 mins right... the shooter then has to decide to dial for center hold or hold off with his reticle and account for the 1/2 min off target or a combo of both

If there is elevation involved, spotter needs to be very clear as to where to put the reticle... something like hold 1 hash mark right, top of the target.

As opposed to "aim a bunch right and a bit high"... always deal in units not estimates.

In team shooting, the role of the shooter is to shoot... the role of the spotter/wind coach is to call or make the corrections on the scope.

If shooting on a paper target, the scoring line typically have an MOA value so you can use that as a grid.

For field shooting it is far better to have a proper reticle then to say " hold a bit left of the rock"... what is a bit... which rock?

Jerry
Click to expand...
Jerry said it very well. It was so long winded because he is trying to be nice. Angular measurement reticles the same units for all reticles and turrets. Spotter calls the correction, shooter repeats back, then shoots. A decent shot can be incredible with the right spotter.
 
If I were spotting for you, and your shot was 6" low at 300, I would call out "up two minutes". I would suggest that it is better to use the calibrations on the sight, rather than count clicks. The elevations and wind charts I use are in minutes. A sight with eighth minute clicks is going to require a lot of counting, if you don't use the calibrations.
Let's say a long range come up is 32 minutes. Winding on that much elevation by counting clicks doesn't make sense. Just twist the knob, and watch the scale.
You need to know how many clicks to a minute of course - if you need to add half a minute of wind - click, click, click, click.
I have a National Match Model 70 Winchester, with a Redfield Mark VIII rear sight. Eighth minute clicks. Counting that many clicks gets old really fast. Hard way to do things.
 
First, stop using "clicks" Call them "minutes". Your 6" low at 300 would translate to "Move up 2 minutes".

Always say "move". If you start saying "Come up" or "go right" it can induce some bad subconscious instructions. When you say "come" the subconscious thinks it should be moving towards the spotter (left or right).

Never say where the bullet hit. Just call the correction. Once the shots are on, corrections cam be short and simple, like "half right" A correction might be because the last shot was left or right, or it might because the spotter saw the mirage pick up a bit.

Learn to shoot fast and call corrections quickly. Less wind changes to deal with. Focus closer to the shooter, not on the target, so you can see the relevant mirage.
 
In a nutshell without getting too complicated first thing you need is a scope with adjustments and reticle speaking the same language, ie moa/moa or mil/mil. Forget about math, clicks, inches, what is what at what distance etc. You will drive yourself nuts. Using reticle to correct the impact, if impact is 1 mil low, 1 mil left, using your scopes adjustments just dial up 1 mil, right 1 mil. Distance is irrelevant, just read what your reticle says.
 
Lots of good advice here. I like the idea of the spotter having his own reticle (as long as it's in the same unit as the shooter), that simplifies things a lot!
 
Great stuff guys, tks. I have a spotting scope but it's an old Bushnell one and doesn't have anything in it. So if my spotter is using it, he can't "measure" the correction to be made. It's an old 32X but was very good for what I was using it for... around 300yds. So are your charts in minutes taken from the net or you guys build it part of your elevation/windage for your specific rifle.
 
Black Jack said:
Great stuff guys, tks. I have a spotting scope but it's an old Bushnell one and doesn't have anything in it. So if my spotter is using it, he can't "measure" the correction to be made. It's an old 32X but was very good for what I was using it for... around 300yds. So are your charts in minutes taken from the net or you guys build it part of your elevation/windage for your specific rifle.
Click to expand...

32X is very strong for a spotter. I prefer 15X to 20X. A strong scope can wash out on a bad mirage day.

No need for a reticel in the scope. You have a diagram of the target, with 1 minute squares on it. Plot each shot and then you can see how many minutes are required for changes.
 
The spotter has to be good at measurement estimations on the target. At known distances on guaranteed sized target boards, it is easy. The bullseye is so-many inches wide, and the rings so-many inches apart. A fast mental calculation turns those into "minutes".
 
Ganderite said:
32X is very strong for a spotter. I prefer 15X to 20X. A strong scope can wash out on a bad mirage day.

No need for a reticel in the scope. You have a diagram of the target, with 1 minute squares on it. Plot each shot and then you can see how many minutes are required for changes.
Click to expand...

Don't assume everybody shoots on a square range. The advice you give may be ok for a target shooter but totally irrelevant in a field environment. What if you don't have a diagram of the target with 1 minutes squares on it. What if you are working in mrad and not moa etc etc. In some applications, a reticle is absolutely essential to give accurate corrections.
 
maple_leaf_eh said:
The spotter has to be good at measurement estimations on the target. At known distances on guaranteed sized target boards, it is easy. The bullseye is so-many inches wide, and the rings so-many inches apart. A fast mental calculation turns those into "minutes".
Click to expand...

Here is an example of that sheet for the original poster. I made this spotting sheet for the NRA 500 yard MR-65 target. Each square is a minute of angle.

MR-65-500target.bmp


Chris.
 
Great thread... Although I'm going to slightly complicate things a bit. Here was my situation at TT's clinic last year.

Shooter 1: mrad scope, never shot in moa.
Shooter 2: moa scope, never shot in mrad.

Spotting scope has no reticle, but we did know target size.

I found that what worked best for us was calling out POI in inches or cm and letting the shooter do the math. This was fast for both of us and worked well.

Is there any way to improve on this method?
 
That would definitely make it more complicated than what it needs to be. As mentioned your scope adjustments and reticle should be the same, both shooter and spotter, and obviously that includes spotting scope's reticle. Again math is not required, adjust impact based on what your reticle tells you and dial the corrections....You can also use your reticle to make adjustments but that's another story.
 
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schumy said:
Great thread... Although I'm going to slightly complicate things a bit. Here was my situation at TT's clinic last year.

Shooter 1: mrad scope, never shot in moa.
Shooter 2: moa scope, never shot in mrad.

Spotting scope has no reticle, but we did know target size.

I found that what worked best for us was calling out POI in inches or cm and letting the shooter do the math. This was fast for both of us and worked well.

Is there any way to improve on this method?
Click to expand...

You could do the math for the shooter. For Mrad, If you see he hit 15cm right at 500m, call 3 clicks left windage (0.1 mrad @ 500m = 5cm).

You could make up simple reference cards for both spotters to use in cm/inches as long as you are shooting at known distances.

As has been said the best solution is for one of you to change the scope so that you are both using the same thing.
 
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Partnerships often develop differently based on preferences. Some shooters want to be fed corrections (in whatever format) while others just want the spotter to call the wind. Bottom line is the role of the spotter is to give the shooter the information they need when they need it. My partner and I have shot 3 seasons together and we prefer corrections in clicks because the shooter doesn't have to think about it and can stay focused. Once we're on the scope we don't come off until the string is done. Calls are just a couple of words. We're not having a conversation. Every good shot I've ever made, I credit my partner because he called it while all I did was pull the trigger. Effective teams will have their own style. While you and your partner develop yours, remember to keep the communication short, direct and consistent in the delivery.
 
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