Pre- 64 winchester
- Thread starter guido
- Start date
Canadian_Zuk
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Pickering, Ontario
That's when Winchester switched to the profit over quality philosophy. Many things changed to make it more cost effective to mass produce their products.
Winchester was not the only manufacturer to cut costs and cheapen their product, about the same time, 1964, and for some years after.
Old fashioned cut checkering became pressed, or rolled in marks that settled for checkering.
Wood and metal didn't fit together so well any more.
Many trigger releases suffered, because of the danger of being sued. When suing became a popular pastime in north America, many little annoyances came to light, like rolled in instructions on the barrel to read the manual, before firing the gun and cross safeties in lever guns.
Even the famous L61 Sako lost it's glassy smooth, polished action, as well as losing the third lug on the bolt, all in the name of cost cutting.
Old fashioned cut checkering became pressed, or rolled in marks that settled for checkering.
Wood and metal didn't fit together so well any more.
Many trigger releases suffered, because of the danger of being sued. When suing became a popular pastime in north America, many little annoyances came to light, like rolled in instructions on the barrel to read the manual, before firing the gun and cross safeties in lever guns.
Even the famous L61 Sako lost it's glassy smooth, polished action, as well as losing the third lug on the bolt, all in the name of cost cutting.
H4831 has made a lot of accurate observations that are very true. The Lawyer's are the only ones who truly benefited in the end. Should "guido" sell off everything and by a pre 64 M-70? probably not unless you really want to. There are still a lot of good modern guns out there that all go bang when the trigger is pulled. It is just that many of us prefer the older ways, methods and look. Kind of like collecting old cars from the 50's and 60's.
Personally I have always liked Winchester guns, as my Dad had several and I was brought up hunting with them, M-12, 94, M-100, M-70, all 1950's vintage. After the production change in 1964 they did make a lot of crap for several years until got things figured out. But they still continued to turn out some superb high quality models now and then such as the 94-22, and the SX-1 shotgun which eventually once again fell by the way side due to very high production costs.
The Remington folks figured out and perfected the mass production stamped gun part thing years before Winchester, they also offered a far greater product line. You can buy a Remington gun in almost any configuration you can think up at a reasonable cost. They appeal to the working mans budget and the quality is just enough to handle periodic use during hunting season. Folks tell me there quality overall has worsened in the last several years. None the less, Remington still appeals to the average Joe and turns a profit.
At present Dad's guns are for the most part retired in the safe. The new M-70's are in my opinion some of the best they ever made, I have several, and really enjoy using them. The over all quality is very high for this day and age for the money. I have tried on several occasions to like the synthetic/stainless configuration as I can certainly see the practicality, but I just can not do it. There is something about a nice piece of wood and good rich deep bluing that gives one that warm and fuzzy feeling.
Personally I have always liked Winchester guns, as my Dad had several and I was brought up hunting with them, M-12, 94, M-100, M-70, all 1950's vintage. After the production change in 1964 they did make a lot of crap for several years until got things figured out. But they still continued to turn out some superb high quality models now and then such as the 94-22, and the SX-1 shotgun which eventually once again fell by the way side due to very high production costs.
The Remington folks figured out and perfected the mass production stamped gun part thing years before Winchester, they also offered a far greater product line. You can buy a Remington gun in almost any configuration you can think up at a reasonable cost. They appeal to the working mans budget and the quality is just enough to handle periodic use during hunting season. Folks tell me there quality overall has worsened in the last several years. None the less, Remington still appeals to the average Joe and turns a profit.
At present Dad's guns are for the most part retired in the safe. The new M-70's are in my opinion some of the best they ever made, I have several, and really enjoy using them. The over all quality is very high for this day and age for the money. I have tried on several occasions to like the synthetic/stainless configuration as I can certainly see the practicality, but I just can not do it. There is something about a nice piece of wood and good rich deep bluing that gives one that warm and fuzzy feeling.
He was just talking about the general trend which began in the 1960's in the American gun industry in general. The bean counters began running the companies not gun people. The bottom line became the be all, end all and quality could go to the devil. Winchester was around over nearly 100 years by 1964 and in two or three years the management had trashed a sterling reputation and it took years for public perception to change.
Mentioning you have a older Remington often makes it more valuable - a mid 80's 870 vs. a early 2000's model is a good example.
I think the reality is - if you do the research and know the vintage of the firearm (regardless of the make) it gives you some insight to the quality control and features at the time.
"...Does this just mean..." Nope. As mentioned Winchester chzangfedtheir manufacturing techniques in 1964. There is a false perception that their QC went down too.
"...switched to the profit over quality..." Nonsense. You think they weren't interested in making a profit before 1964? They went to less expensive manufacturing techniques and materials to continue making profits.
Generally speaking, all U.S. firearms manufacturers did it. Ruger built his whole business on stamped and investment cast parts.
"...When suing became a popular pastime in North America..." Stateside, only. The kind of idiocy that goes on there would never be tolerated by Her Majesty's Justices.
"...switched to the profit over quality..." Nonsense. You think they weren't interested in making a profit before 1964? They went to less expensive manufacturing techniques and materials to continue making profits.
Generally speaking, all U.S. firearms manufacturers did it. Ruger built his whole business on stamped and investment cast parts.
"...When suing became a popular pastime in North America..." Stateside, only. The kind of idiocy that goes on there would never be tolerated by Her Majesty's Justices.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Back in the late 60's early 70's the pre 64 model 70 was preferred for the simple reason it was a cfr. Any model made after 64 was a push feed (until recently). This is why the pre 64 preference. (only for m70's) Not until recent years, comparatively, has the QC come into question.
Back in the late 60's early 70's the pre 64 model 70 was preferred for the simple reason it was a cfr. Any model made after 64 was a push feed (until recently). This is why the pre 64 preference. (only for m70's) Not until recent years, comparatively, has the QC come into question.
- Location
- Ottawa origanally Muskoka
I have a mid 90's M70 which in my opinion is as good or beeter than the pre64 model. The one dis like I have is the blackened aluminum trigger gaurd and multi pice bottom metal. A pre 64 would not have these draw backs but it wouldn't have the ant bind CRF bolt either.
Pre 64 is a terminology for a few Winchester Models.
Specifically Winchester completely changed the Model 70 in 1964 (as well as other models and the 94). The biggest change was going from a controlled round feed to a push feed and a barrel that was free floated with a quarter inch gap on each side... Model 70 lovers hated this change. They have since re introduced the CRF in an action they refer to as a Model 70 Classic. The model 94 was completely changed as well. The next couple of years were junk.
Pre 64 Model 70 and Model 94's are more desirable. Prewar Winchesters are even more desirable.
Specifically Winchester completely changed the Model 70 in 1964 (as well as other models and the 94). The biggest change was going from a controlled round feed to a push feed and a barrel that was free floated with a quarter inch gap on each side... Model 70 lovers hated this change. They have since re introduced the CRF in an action they refer to as a Model 70 Classic. The model 94 was completely changed as well. The next couple of years were junk.
Pre 64 Model 70 and Model 94's are more desirable. Prewar Winchesters are even more desirable.
Sorry, can't let that slide. In 1964 Winchester radically changed their materials and manufacturing methods. On the model 94 for instance they switched some parts to stamped instead of machined parts.
The wood quality worsened, inletting was absolutely terrible, receivers were castings that were then plated with a black chrome like substance(that fell off in chunks and COULDN'T be reblued. THEY EVEN RATTLED WHEN SHAKEN!!!! Their QC sucked and they didn't start to improve until the early 70's and did get steadily better until the 1980's when the 94 was once again a well built rifle. Any 94 built between 1964 and 1968 is a piece of garbage in my opinion and they didn't improve rapidly after that. They were functional but not well made at all. Like I said in four years they trashed a reputation it took 100 years to build.
The wood quality worsened, inletting was absolutely terrible, receivers were castings that were then plated with a black chrome like substance(that fell off in chunks and COULDN'T be reblued. THEY EVEN RATTLED WHEN SHAKEN!!!! Their QC sucked and they didn't start to improve until the early 70's and did get steadily better until the 1980's when the 94 was once again a well built rifle. Any 94 built between 1964 and 1968 is a piece of garbage in my opinion and they didn't improve rapidly after that. They were functional but not well made at all. Like I said in four years they trashed a reputation it took 100 years to build.
