Precision rifle builders in Canada

PSR said:
They will feature bartlein barrels surgeon actions etc.. And will be guaranteed at .25 moa with a test target using FGMM ammunition.
Click to expand...

Thousands of F class shooters spend thousands of hours tuning their hand loads to achieve 1/3 to 1/4 moa, it'll be very very(x100) hard if not impossible to get consistent 1/4 moa from a rifle system with factory ammo.
BTW all the components listed are already out there getting used by many great shooters but we don't see that many claims of 1/4 moa consistency that often(5 groups of 5 shots each on same paper)
Not saying it's impossible, just wait till laser guided bullets are mass produced. Then I'll be able to shoot consistent 1/2 moa ;)
 
Ryan_mcle said:
The 1/4 moa Sample target Tac-ops sends a 3 shot or 5 shot? If I was going to drop that kind of money I would want a set of targets with 1/4 moa groups.
OP the picture you posted is that a 3 or a 5 shot group and was that off a bipod or rest? It is much easier to shoot 1/4 moa groups off a rest. I know of many guns that could do this that cost well under 6000.
Look at the Chou brothers for insperation,they started building rifles only a few years ago and make some of the best in the country. If you learn and surround your self with the best you will become one of the best.
Good luck

Ryan
Click to expand...


Bipod, prone, 100 yards, 3 shot.
 
Markus said:
Good for you for wanting to build something from the ground up. But just out of curiousity, couldn't I buy my own surgeon or panda action and bartlein barrel and have anyone of the excellent smiths we have in this country assemble it for less than $6000? I haven't priced out these actions in a while but I still think there is lots of meat left on the bone to get to 6 grand which was your starting point up to 10 grand. Unless you are talking including optics, range finder and a shooting course.
Click to expand...
prices for the parts of the builds I'll provide total $6000CAD
 
I'm not going to argue the logistics of if its possible to build a consistent 1/4 moa gun because even I can't keep every group at 1/4 moa or less, with the right tool I can shoot it a lot more often, but not every single time. A system is only as strong as its weakest link and that would be the human error. I'm also not going to argue the capabilities of tactical rifles via BR guns as the only difference is the specs they are made too. I'll tell you this, living in the USA my adult life and being exposed to gap, Tac ops, apa etc rifles I can tell you there is a new standard, and 1/2 moa might be the guarentee these builders give, but with the right driver they will shoot wayyyy under that any day.
 
I believe the target market if the person with a huge budget that wants a rifle that is guaranteed to shoot and doesn't want to wait for the time that is associated with custom builds.

If said person is shopping top end rifles, and cadex says they are the best, and pgw says they are the best, and atrs says they are the best, but this new guys says his rifle will shoot 1/4 uMOA or you get your money back (which no one else does) then it makes choices easy.

If he can fulfill his promise and has top notch workmanship. Then he will make a name for himself and do well.
 
PSR said:
There's always gonna be a trolling cyber warrior isn't there.. Anyway have a good day gents. I have nothing to prove. This thread was to present an idea, and when it manifests it'll be updated. Thanks for your time
Click to expand...

Actually, you will have everything to prove if you expect people to pay 10K for a rifle from someone who has no name or reputation in the firearms business.........For that money I can have one hell of a custom rig built the way I want with the parts I want to use........
In reality I would simply buy a PGWDTI Coyote, which has a proven track record.

You will be competing directing against companies such as CADEX, PGWDTI, ATRS who have already established themselves over the past few years if not decades.........this isn't even including the small custom builders such as the Chou brothers and many others.......

BTW, To most of us here, a single 3 shot group means nothing..............that isn't an accurate indicator of how a rifle or shooter performs.......

But if you are really set on this path, Good Luck to you.
 
PSR, First off... I wish you the best. There are guys who do build amazingly accurate stuff out there. I come from a professional background of selling expensive things to very select people.... my cautions / advice: I think your market is pretty small so you better have a defined plan on how to grow it, (i.e. the US), through distributorship, sit down with guys from Wolverine (i.e GO THERE) or companies as a potential vendor and LEARN, there are guys out there that will flog your wares if they are commercially viable. Also having a strategy and prototypes that you can put in the hands of some marketable pro's out there. You need your guns to "win" things. Building super accurate guns in the scale of things is easy, getting known and getting people to buy them is the harder challenge.

I started off hobby machining, and then I got interested in firearms machining.... and then..... I built some absolute laser beams.
My guns are accurate because I started with good materials and took the time to do it right.
I can always send straight iron away for paint but you can't paint a bent gun straight.

My only other point would be this. Have someone answer the phones every time. We adopted this model in my business and all my main guys have their CELL PHONES ring after the office doesn't pick up after two. Phoning and getting a real person is huge, you are in a PEOPLE BUSINESS even if you just PUMP SEPTIC TANKS. I know in the gun world customers love to tell fish stories and their life history to the seller so that they "understand" them (just go the gun counter at wholesale sports on a Sunday afternoon...... ugh). but that is part of the game, get used to it and own it.

An example of what not to do: I've been to a shop in Calgary that goes by the initials A__S. you fill in the TR. I was blown away by the absolute snobbishness of their staff. They are the experts and if you grovel they may allow you to visit the throne room for a minute, and no; I'm not the gun counter guy, I just ask questions because I like to learn. I have a fair bit of disposable income for gun stuff and I was blown away. I don't think I'll ever shop their again. They could have the best of everything and be the smartest at everything and good for them. Zero on the warm fuzzy which in customer service in a high end is never good. If you EDUCATE your customers as part of their experience they will want to do business with you because you took the time to TEACH them something...... wow what a concept. Where would you rather buy parts... Napa where the guy takes the time to teach you what you need or Canadian Tire where the 12 year old behind the counter prays the computer will tell him what you need..... even if Napa is more expensive.


Again, best of luck, the hardest part of the road to success is getting started.

cheers.
 
Get your parts ordered up and start building them.... several of them. I doubt you will get it right on your first try.

Start testing.. start LEARNING... test some more... learn some more.

Then start competing... hopefully, you start winning... then learn some more.

After this little bit, either you have moved the fence posts or a great big dose of humilty has set in. Plus you will have a true understanding of what precision shooting and gear actually means and does.

You will go down a lot of dead ends and there will be alot of failures BUT you got to learn and this is a DOING sport.

With battle scars and a solid track record... ie that Street Cred alluded to before, you and your customers will already answer the question about what you can do for them.

If you make it that far, you will not need to worry about guarantees... the stuff will simple perform. Targets don't lie and you are up against gear that really is superb.

When you are in business, you will get the irrate customer phone call or email. How you answer this may very well determine how successful you are from that point on.

High end gun buyers have little tolerance for back talk or "holier then thou" attitude so better build a thick layer of skin and PATIENCE... and hopefully by then you will know alot more then you currently do.

Never stop learning, never believe you know the answers or are the smartest guy in the room.....

And with this type of venture, bring alot of money... you will need it.

All the best.

Jerry
 
PSR do you want a cheap way of making accurate rifles? If you are good at chemistry and compounds.... my suggestion is something you should consider. Have you ever heard of a company that makes barrel shrouds for rifles and fills them with a compound between the shroud and the barrel?

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/gunsmithing_crazy_performance_093010/

That's the link above^^^ This is what I would pay money for. The problem, what "is" the compound used to draw heat away from a barrel that makes the first 20+ shots cold bore? The other thing is patents...

Don't get me wrong, your idea of a super custom rifle of 1/4 moa accuracy is worth every dollar, but to be honest many rifles that do sub moa can already do that with the right reloading and marksmanship.
 
EDX2308 said:
PSR do you want a cheap way of making accurate rifles? If you are good at chemistry and compounds.... my suggestion is something you should consider. Have you ever heard of a company that makes barrel shrouds for rifles and fills them with a compound between the shroud and the barrel?

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/gunsmithing_crazy_performance_093010/

That's the link above^^^ This is what I would pay money for. The problem, what "is" the compound used to draw heat away from a barrel that makes the first 20+ shots cold bore? The other thing is patents...

Don't get me wrong, your idea of a super custom rifle of 1/4 moa accuracy is worth every dollar, but to be honest many rifles that do sub moa can already do that with the right reloading and marksmanship.
Click to expand...

Wow, I just inquired about getting this in Canada... Hopefully it's do-able
 
PSR said:
Anyway I was set on a custom build in a Racs chassis but now I'm thinking of going with a Ruger Precision Rifle in .243 (I reload) topped with S&B glass.
Felipe
Click to expand...

PSR said:
Nothing as of now, solely the plan, or idea of starting this business. But I have a solid business plan in place and the funds to back it. As of now I am in the observing process of learning. Just starting to get my hands dirty but as soon as there greasy I'll post a thread and pics. Thanks
Click to expand...


PSR said:
I will be in a state of the art shop, and I'm learning from a state of the art mentor. Time will tellI will be in a state of the art shop, and I'm learning from a state of the art mentor. Time will tell
Click to expand...


So...you are studying to be a gun builder, alluding to being mentored by a world class gunsmith, have owned rifles costing thousands of $'s, have all the money start your own shop within a year, can afford S and B glass but are considering a ruger PR...OK

Since you are "just starting to get your hands dirty" BUILD a rifle FFS

You have nothing you've ever built now "soley the plan" OR THE "idea of starting the business" BUT you "have a solid business plan in place".

Which is it? What's your solid business plan you have in place?

You have no experience, never done any work, don't have a shop, don't even have a GUN FFS but have a solid business plan in place to build world class rifles in a year?

Who are you mentoring with. Let me guess you cant or wont say...
 
Last edited:
Having funds for a personal project/rifle and a family member with credit line for a loan are two separate things. I might be able to afford to build 5 rifles in the starting batch that doesn't mean I can afford to keep them. I plan on getting back in the sport with what I can afford before I start pushing out 10k rifles. Thanks for your input kind sir!
 
Last edited:
I would take your time with market research.......1/4 MOA or not $10K will buy a rifle from any of our top notch builders and have a nice chunk of change left over......especially when your parts list is nothing unique.

I would buckle up.... This thread is just getting started!
 
The Canadian market is fairly well served, there are some areas that can use some improvement, one of which I'm slowly working on...
When I looked a bit into it regarding putting rifles together as a business the insurance was an extra $4k/yr on top of what I'm already paying.
What happens with the election next month could also affect the future market greatly.
You also have the fact that our economy is going down the sh*tters, so those who will be putting that much $ on toys is rapidly diminishing.
 
Someone who is an engineer and works part time at our local club wanted to build a super precise M14 several years ago.
He built it from the ground up with a custom built barre, cut with a custom designed reamer of his own specification and cut by a friend of his who is a very good machinist.
No money was spared and it sat in a JAE stock with all the finest parts money could buy.
The rifle was assembled and tested and was shooting groups well below 1 MOA.

He was thrilled by the precision of his rifle and brought it to Connaught range for a service rifle competition.
There was a slight rain that day and due to the water droplets on the ammo, grass, mud, etc. he had 123 jams with his rifle, some requiring kicking or pounding the action open.
He personally told me that it was then that he realized that a precision rifle and a service rifle are not interchangeable.

Just to give you an idea the C14 Timberwolf's accuracy potential is stated by its manufacturer as sub 0.75 MOA with proper ammunition. The Canadian Forces accuracy standard was evaluated by hit probability with a requirement of hitting a chest sized target at 1,200 m (1,312 yd) 90% of the time. PGW Defence Technologies Inc. averaged over 95% on this standard and every weapon delivered under the Canadian Armed Forces contract was evaluated for accuracy and witnessed by DND officials.
So in reality it hit a 1.3 MOA wide target 95% of the time at 1,200 m. Environmental conditions, shooter, ammunition all play a factor and once again this is a rifle that is designed to do it in all weather conditions and environments.

Do you want to build a rifle that can shoot 1/4 MOA in a laboratory or in a hard, cruel, real world that will eat you up and spit you out given the chance?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom