Press Question - torque handle

bigHUN

bigHUN

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Aurora/ON
I have inherited this press with a trunk load of other reloading stuff from a friend. It works OKish, not perfect but not bad neither.

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All dies I bought from a single brand LEE Wilson, no mixing.
I am developing my own processes now, brass preparation and seizing OD and ID. Chasing the steps for most consistency.

When I am neck seizing or pushing a mandrel into the brass neck, I feel a different force in between the brass shells.
Just pulling the handle down by hand and how hard is it is speculative, I would like to get something with numbers. Not that the torque numbers are important but to see visually a consistency.
I can pre-sort the neck tension before I got to a next step for bullet seating.

Tinkering to fabricate some kind of torque arm for it. Not as a torque wrench but the old style beam torque scale? Something like this maybe?

Beam-Type Torque Wrench.png


I would welcome some ideas.
 
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Just take a batch of 50 or 100 brass, and run a lubed mandrel in the brass neck, repeating strokes on press handle 4x-5x-6x times in and out but all the same. Progressing towards a smooth feel.
You would expect the springing force equalized on all the brass neck?
Check that batch one more time, run the mandrel again on each brass - but now push down the handle with your fingertip only.
;)
 
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The best solution would be to strain gauge the 2 vertical columns so you can get a direct reading of the load required for the operation, paired with a digital data collection system so you could record the results. Then you would basically have the same thing as that bullet seating digital gauge AMP put out. But it would require some technical knowledge to set up, along with some time and significant money.

I doubt it would be worth it, in any practical sense.
 
Ok, so I get it that you love to tinker, it is in your nature and there is noting wrong with that. However some steps in reloading are a waste of time and have zero effect on a loaded round. You will have to figure this out on your own. You can sort your cases by volume, weigh your primers, uniform your primer pockets, anneal cases, meplat trim, weigh match bullets, sort by ogive length, neck turn, ream necks, cut kernals of powder, and even name each piece of brass and have them blessed by the Pope himself. Once the wind starts blowing at 1000 yards all of the above steps mean Jack Schmit.
Miss one wind change and the shot that should have followed the last shot into the center of the target is now hanging on the edge of the 3 ring.

You will gain more match points with more trigger time than you will at your loading bench.
 
maynard said:
Ok, so I get it that you love to tinker, it is in your nature and there is noting wrong with that. However some steps in reloading are a waste of time and have zero effect on a loaded round. You will have to figure this out on your own. You can sort your cases by volume, weigh your primers, uniform your primer pockets, anneal cases, meplat trim, weigh match bullets, sort by ogive length, neck turn, ream necks, cut kernals of powder, and even name each piece of brass and have them blessed by the Pope himself. Once the wind starts blowing at 1000 yards all of the above steps mean Jack Schmit.
Miss one wind change and the shot that should have followed the last shot into the center of the target is now hanging on the edge of the 3 ring.

You will gain more match points with more trigger time than you will at your loading bench.
Click to expand...
This 1000x
Honestly I don’t even do much load dev anymore. I get a IBI, Krieger or Bartlein sent to my smith. I use Lapua, ADG or Alpha brass. I pick the right powder for the appropriate projectile which are usually Berger hybrids, Sierra TMKs and ELD-Ms and I load 10-20thou off the lands.
My latest IBI 223 match shoots 80.5 into the 1/4 moa, sometimes slightly better, sometime slightly worse and I don’t do any case prep whatsoever.
 
Echo what these guys said, BUT if you're just looking to expand your understanding and think more.. then yeah why not. The more you know the more you can make your own call about whether it's worth it or not.

If you already have a beam torque wrench then all you really need to do is find a way to attach a bolt or socket onto the press. Either drill and tap and put a bolt in, or a clamp on the handle that has a bolt to tighten, then put the wrench on that bolt. It may be a bit clunky but if you're only doing a couple dozen as an experiment it'll work. If you find it does matter for you then you look at something like an arbor press with a force cell and load with it.

I think most people just pay attention when seating bullets, and if one goes in too easy they just segregate it for a fowler.
 
I can't and I don't want to go to a range before the weather reaches 10C at least.
So just tinkering indoors - for now what and where I can improve on my equipment and my process.

My idea is to sort the processed brass during the sizing with mandrel.
Ones you reach to a stage where seating the bullet - the deal is donne... nomore sorting.
 
Ok, I sort these brass into two groups, harder and softer to "feel" on fingers the push on press handle when running the mandrel...
For now I loaded the powder into harder "feel" and next when I will press the bullets with my inline Wilson die I will measure the sitting press force.
These will be 4x10 shot groups @ 300.
Next I will test the bullet sitting press force on second batch that I figure these were easier feel on the press handle.
This way I can get an educational comparison on POI, for now @ 300 only.
Will see what happens.
I need to make a dope card for longer distances, when the time comes to play :)
 
I have an update from yesterday.
As I sorted the (unknown history) Lapua brass yesterday only best I could do by sensation in my finger tips, I seated these bullets today with my Wilson die.
These brass have been neck turned previously so no chamber sized, neck ID brushed and lubed, mandrel and tested, powder loaded, lubed before the bullet seating. Only calculated variation is in powder amount.

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I measured the seating peak force how the bullet tail pushes into the brass neck only, and not for bottoming it.
These are my numbers for this batch only, I did not sample all of it, I am focusing on powder weight for now.

bullet sitting press force.JPG

My controller is in metric, I am measuring Kilograms.
We can see most of the bullets needed 16 to 18 Kg peak force, but I have seen spikes 14 Kg low and 23 Kg high.
I must admit I was very surprised how easy was the sensation on gear and pinion handle - or probably on most arbour presses - seeing the 18 Kg is a lot in my mind to seat the bullet.
This gives me an idea but afraid to say it - people chasing +/- 0.1 or 0.2 grain accuracy measuring the powder but on the other side the friction between bullet and the brass is - a taboo?

I am hoping the weather will stabilize for next weekend, I will do the next batch with seating depth variations.
 
People chasing +/- .1 or .2 gr accuracy measuring powder, what are you using LEE scoops? I think you mean .02 gr of powder. With everything that you are doing and changing before even firing a shot, how are you going to determine what the magic step was? One group won’t tell you much. It would be interesting if you loaded up some cases without all the prep that you are doing and shoot a couple 10 round groups to use as a baseline.
3 or 5 round groups are not going to cut it. I have never fired a 5 round match.
 
Those numbers all seem low. I understand english is not your first language. I think that you just measured the initial force to get the bullet into the case mouth. I dont think this represents the force created by sliding friction as the bullet is fully seated, or when the bullet is shot. In addition, the sliding friction force would change depending upon the rate at which the bullet is inserted. I guess if a fella wanted to get really fancy, he would need to measure the amount of work (force x distance) that is needed. I think you need to give this some more thought. 😁 BTW - Did you chamfer the case mouths??
 
maynard said:
People chasing +/- .1 or .2 gr accuracy measuring powder, what are you using LEE scoops? I think you mean .02 gr of powder. With everything that you are doing and changing before even firing a shot, how are you going to determine what the magic step was? One group won’t tell you much. ..
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Yes, I meant 0.1-0.2 grain powder measuring accuracy in my notes earlier up. Grains not grams.
My digital scale is 0.2 gn rounding error, using it at least ten years with all my other shooting sports.
I am documenting my steps... kind of process development.
I said I am preparing 4x 10 shot groups, I loaded the powder in incremental - 45.6 gn, 45.8 gn, 46.0 gn, and 46.2 gn.

cosmic said:
...I understand english is not your first language... BTW - Did you chamfer the case mouths??
Click to expand...
:) yes I am investing an amount of energy finding the right wording and expressions in communicating about these things. Thanks for understanding.
I understand all what you saying about technical = how to measure the friction force. I just didn't wanted to make it boring to some.
My eyes opened when I saw a 18-20 Kilogram = peak weight on the scale. No wonder why people getting doughnuts on brass thin wall neck.

Yes I forgot to mention earlier the in/outside chamferring on brass neck in brass preparation.

To be clear again, these brass I inherited, with primers installed. I need to shoot them anyways to get the neck forming to my chamber. When this box of 100 all shot I will source for annealing and hopefully start from scratch.

The main purpose of this my OP was to investigate how or where within a preparation process I can possibly sort the brass by neck tension...and not at the bullet seating press.
 
I am seeing an opportunity to pre-sort my brass at the step when running the mandrel on neck ID.
Otherwise the 16-18 (or whatever) measured Kilogram (peak weight needed to start the brass spring) has no other scientific value or purpose for me.
The most easiest for me would be to source a bracket to my friends cnc shop. But my old press (picture above) doesn't have enough vertical stroke to accommodate this extra piece height.

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Option "B" - going back to the beam torque wrench idea. Now I know that the minimum shall be about 30Kg-M, that is what? about 60 ft-lbs. Or whatever is cheaper, the exercise not worth to invest serious $.
But that old red press (picture above) has no screws, all put together and holds on dowel rod, I can assume maybe 15-20 years old.
I don't think I would invest taking it apart, only to drill+tap in this position assembled. ;(
 
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On the other end of the spectrum... I have heard that some shooters that were experiencing more ES and SD than they expected, lightly crimped their match bullets to reduce ES and SD numbers.
It is great that you are taking a scientific approach to reloading. I am waiting for the weather to break for you to see what results on target and by the chrony numbers that all the tinkering has accomplished.
 
30 Kg-m is about 200 ft-lbs. 5-15 ft-lbs much more likely. Maynards suggestion of a crimp die warrants some investigation - this allows you to simply adjust the bullet release force. This may be much more reliable than trying to maintain and adjust the bullet seating force.
 
As I said I created a measuring tool for bullet seating force only to get some visual sense about what I feel in my fingers when pushing the press handle.
I think I figure out the adapter how can I dual purpose my digital torque wrench for the press when running the mandrel. Sourcing it today to friends machine shop.
Again, these - measured - numbers have no other value to me, but only to pre sort somehow the brass neck springing tension before gets to bullet seating.

The weatherman is saying maybe Thursday would be a good day for group testing?
 
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